Episode 56
E56: The Value of Framing Your Services as a Product with Ellen Grace Henson
Understanding the value you bring to your clients is a critical insight into the path to success for those of us who provide expertise-based services. In this episode of Hourly to Exit, we got meta in our conversation with Ellen Grace Henson, a management consultant focusing on product management. She offered insights based on her work and business that apply to our journey toward creating a business that can be operated independently from our own time.
In this episode, you will learn about:
- The importance of alignment across your business – including your legal and finance operations
- The three types of value we provide to clients: incremental, innovative, and transformational
- How to leverage the common challenges you address regardless of your client size or industry
- BONUS - Ellen Grace introduces us to a nonprofit community for women in consulting
In the journey to scaling our business, Ellen Grace’s understanding of product management translates seamlessly to our “product” –our expertise. Her path has led to creating frameworks and other products that can operate independently from her time. If you have reached that point in your business and are interested in protecting this intellectual property, contact me for a consultation.
More About Our Guest:
Managing Director and Founder of Marketing Mechanics, Ellen Grace Henson, has been involved with high-tech business strategy and product management since the mid-’90s and has been a consultant for 18 years. A thought leader with experience in multiple markets and technologies, Ellen Grace brings a unique combination of analysis and creativity to business and product strategy, market and customer insight, and product-delivery process design. Working with Marketing Mechanics helps organizations achieve alignment from the end user to the bottom line - leading to increased revenue, engaged employees, and satisfied customers.
Ellen Grace has contributed to the strategy, design and delivery of successful products for start-ups as well as Global 500 companies. A respected guest lecturer in the MBA program at Santa Clara University, she helped define and deliver the inaugural product management certification program, “Productizing Innovation,” for the Executive Development Center at the university. Ellen Grace is a graduate of MIT and past president of Women In Consulting, a professional association headquartered in the San Francisco Bay Area.
Connect with Ellen Grace Henson:
Connect with Erin and find the resources mentioned in this episode at hourlytoexit.com/podcast.
Erin's LinkedIn Page: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erinaustin/
Think Beyond IP YouTube Page: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVztXnDYnZ83oIb-EGX9IGA/videos
Music credit: Yes She Can by Tiny Music
A Team Dklutr production
Transcript
Hello, ladies.
Speaker:Welcome to the
Speaker:Hourly Exit Podcast.
Speaker:Thank you for joining
Speaker:me today, and thank you.
Speaker:I have Ellen Grace
Speaker:Henson who's joined me
Speaker:for today's episode.
Speaker:Hi.
Speaker:Hi.
Speaker:So this is a special
Speaker:one for me 'cause Ellen
Speaker:Grace and I go way back
Speaker:and we've even done some,
Speaker:productized services together.
Speaker:And so this is, going
Speaker:to be an interesting one
Speaker:today since she is a.
Speaker:Very experienced management
Speaker:consultant who has, really
Speaker:studied some of the issues
Speaker:that are involved with
Speaker:creating a business that
Speaker:can operate independently
Speaker:from the owner and providing
Speaker:value to clients other
Speaker:than selling your time.
Speaker:And so we are gonna dig
Speaker:into all of that today.
Speaker:But first, Ellen Grace,
Speaker:can you please introduce
Speaker:yourself to the audience?
Speaker:Hello audience.
Speaker:I wanna give Erin some props.
Speaker:she mentioned that we
Speaker:did some work together on
Speaker:productizing services and
Speaker:it was one of the highlights
Speaker:of my professional career
Speaker:working with Erin Austin.
Speaker:So if you have an opportunity
Speaker:to work with Erin Austin,
Speaker:I encourage you to take it.
Speaker:Wow, thank you.
Speaker:So, absolutely,
Speaker:Ellen Grace Henson.
Speaker:My company's name is Marketing
Speaker:Mechanics, and I've been
Speaker:consulting in business
Speaker:strategy, product strategy,
Speaker:and product management
Speaker:for upwards of 18 years.
Speaker:My company helps our clients
Speaker:better understand their
Speaker:markets and customers so they
Speaker:can build better products,
Speaker:more successful businesses.
Speaker:And uniquely, we help
Speaker:teams align around a shared
Speaker:understanding of the customer.
Speaker:I.
Speaker:One of the top points of
Speaker:failure for teams is a lack
Speaker:of shared goals and alignment,
Speaker:and I like to say that one
Speaker:of the most natural and
Speaker:neutral areas for alignment
Speaker:is a focus on the customer.
Speaker:So when you have team
Speaker:members sharing and
Speaker:understanding of the customer,
Speaker:collaboration becomes easier.
Speaker:Shared goals become easier.
Speaker:So that's part
Speaker:of the work I do.
Speaker:Yeah, I mean that,
Speaker:directly feeds into the
Speaker:idea of instead of thinking
Speaker:about the inputs, 'cause
Speaker:departments are inputs, right?
Speaker:We're thinking about the
Speaker:outputs and the results
Speaker:we're providing to our
Speaker:clients, which is of
Speaker:course, customer focused.
Speaker:I.
Speaker:And so that is where
Speaker:the greater value is.
Speaker:So yeah, I'm very antis
Speaker:silo, which is obviously
Speaker:what you work against.
Speaker:And if you're all working
Speaker:towards that same goal,
Speaker:which is the outcome
Speaker:we're providing, the value
Speaker:we're providing for the
Speaker:client, then we are all
Speaker:working towards the same,
Speaker:goal.
Speaker:That's right.
Speaker:Can I build on
Speaker:that a little bit?
Speaker:Please?
Speaker:Because one of the outputs
Speaker:also when people have the
Speaker:understanding that they have
Speaker:shared goals, They also then
Speaker:have better connections with
Speaker:other people on the team.
Speaker:So what I see a lot in
Speaker:tech is some jobs are
Speaker:more highly valued than
Speaker:others inside the company.
Speaker:And, um, we forget
Speaker:sometimes that it's
Speaker:not just the product.
Speaker:While the product and the
Speaker:technology are core to the
Speaker:value that we deliver, if.
Speaker:Operations isn't in alignment
Speaker:and understanding what the
Speaker:customer needs, there's a
Speaker:potential point of failure.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:If marketing is not
Speaker:in alignment with the
Speaker:understanding of the customer,
Speaker:if there's a misalignment
Speaker:between product management
Speaker:and marketing on who the
Speaker:customer is, there's a
Speaker:potential point of failure.
Speaker:And I actually had a client
Speaker:who brought me in, in
Speaker:part because their team
Speaker:wasn't aligned There was
Speaker:a lot of role contention.
Speaker:Whose job is it anyhow?
Speaker:And ultimately there was
Speaker:a disconnect between what
Speaker:product was building and
Speaker:what sales was selling.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And it wouldn't have mattered
Speaker:how good that product was
Speaker:when customers received it.
Speaker:It wasn't what they expected.
Speaker:It's like, I need A new pair
Speaker:of fancy shoes for a party
Speaker:I'm going to, and the company
Speaker:ships, me hiking boots, and
Speaker:while they might be the most
Speaker:awesome hiking boots in the
Speaker:world, I can't wear them
Speaker:to the party I'm going to.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:So and that company had been
Speaker:like number one in market
Speaker:share and this disruption
Speaker:or challenge in delivering
Speaker:value to their customer.
Speaker:Cost them a lot of customers,
Speaker:cost them a lot of money
Speaker:and cost them significant
Speaker:share in the market.
Speaker:It gave their competitors
Speaker:an opportunity to
Speaker:jump into the market.
Speaker:So alignment is not just
Speaker:a nice thing to have.
Speaker:It's critical for success.
Speaker:It is.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:And we're gonna talk about
Speaker:value in a second, but I
Speaker:just wanted, as you were,
Speaker:telling us that story, it
Speaker:reminded me of a kind of
Speaker:concept idea that I had when
Speaker:I first started thinking
Speaker:about like how to pivot away
Speaker:from working just with big
Speaker:corporations, which was.
Speaker:Basically looking at the
Speaker:entire customer journey and
Speaker:looking at how all the places
Speaker:that legal and contracts
Speaker:are impactful everywhere
Speaker:along from, the time that
Speaker:we're talking to them, to
Speaker:the sale, to the close, to
Speaker:delivery, including maximizing
Speaker:the long-term value of
Speaker:that client relationship.
Speaker:And, I never quite.
Speaker:there.
Speaker:It's still the hanging
Speaker:out back there, but it
Speaker:is, to your point, all
Speaker:these things have to align
Speaker:to maximize that value.
Speaker:Both what we give and what we
Speaker:get from that relationship.
Speaker:So, absolutely.
Speaker:And you have the risk of
Speaker:going off on a big tangent.
Speaker:I'd be happy to brainstorm
Speaker:on the role of legal, but
Speaker:I also wanna say, I think
Speaker:legal and finance are two
Speaker:of the most under leveraged.
Speaker:Groups in the company
Speaker:for understanding the
Speaker:value our customers need
Speaker:and for creating unique
Speaker:value inside the company.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So especially now, I mean the
Speaker:legal environment is much more
Speaker:complex than, with, security
Speaker:and management and identity
Speaker:management, all those things.
Speaker:It's a much more complex
Speaker:environment and there's
Speaker:various points in time
Speaker:or various points along
Speaker:the customer experience
Speaker:where companies are
Speaker:gathering information about
Speaker:prospects and customers.
Speaker:You need a legal
Speaker:check on that.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And not just a legal check,
Speaker:but also are we doing it
Speaker:in a way that makes it easy
Speaker:for our customers to engage?
Speaker:sometimes when I'm asked about
Speaker:cookies, it's very simple.
Speaker:I can set a couple
Speaker:of things and great.
Speaker:Other times When a
Speaker:website asks me about
Speaker:cookies, they tell me
Speaker:to go read this comple.
Speaker:If I wanna, limit the
Speaker:cookies that are used.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:They tell me to go read
Speaker:this complex document and
Speaker:contact this third party.
Speaker:I find that
Speaker:actually insulting.
Speaker:Why do they wanna make it
Speaker:difficult for me to have
Speaker:a positive experience
Speaker:with their company?
Speaker:It is.
Speaker:Well, things have gotten very
Speaker:complicated with cookies,
Speaker:with data privacy, certainly
Speaker:when you're dealing with
Speaker:international businesses, G
Speaker:D P R, but you're right, that
Speaker:is, a long, detour, but I.
Speaker:I will take you off
Speaker:on, thinking about how
Speaker:these two things work
Speaker:together another day.
Speaker:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker:So we wanna talk today
Speaker:about, the types of value
Speaker:that we as expertise-based
Speaker:businesses with corporate
Speaker:clients, how do we provide
Speaker:value, for our clients?
Speaker:And you have some
Speaker:ideas around that.
Speaker:I'd love for you
Speaker:to share them.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:So I wanna make it clear
Speaker:when we talk about not
Speaker:just selling your time,
Speaker:sometimes when, people start
Speaker:out first in a consulting
Speaker:or contracting business,
Speaker:they charge per hour.
Speaker:All right?
Speaker:And.
Speaker:Sometimes that's appropriate,
Speaker:but as you grow in the
Speaker:value that you deliver,
Speaker:you might rethink that and
Speaker:that's a sidebar we can
Speaker:take up a little bit later.
Speaker:So there are different types
Speaker:of value that as a consultant
Speaker:or a contractor, you can
Speaker:deliver to your clients.
Speaker:One is incremental and
Speaker:incremental means they
Speaker:can get more done, right?
Speaker:So if you're a marketing
Speaker:contractor, you can help
Speaker:get more content written.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Another is innovative.
Speaker:What can you do that might
Speaker:shift how your client delivers
Speaker:value to their customers?
Speaker:What insights can you provide?
Speaker:Is it a different
Speaker:take on a market?
Speaker:Is it a different marketing
Speaker:strategy or different
Speaker:sales strategy, a different
Speaker:legal strategy that's
Speaker:contributing innovative value?
Speaker:And then there can
Speaker:also be value that
Speaker:is transformational.
Speaker:That really transforms the
Speaker:way your client does business
Speaker:or that transforms the way
Speaker:your client is delivering
Speaker:value to their audiences.
Speaker:that might be something along
Speaker:the lines of, I'll talk about
Speaker:this a little bit more later
Speaker:if you want Aaron, but my
Speaker:good friend Jim Harran, he
Speaker:first started in business,
Speaker:he was a, fractional C F
Speaker:o, chief Financial Officer.
Speaker:Then he created the
Speaker:one page business plan.
Speaker:Oh, okay.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Not only did he transform the
Speaker:positioning of his business
Speaker:and make it more compelling,
Speaker:he helped transform the
Speaker:approach companies were
Speaker:taking to generating business
Speaker:plans and tracking their
Speaker:success against that plan
Speaker:where, a business plan.
Speaker:We've all probably seen or
Speaker:worked on business plans
Speaker:that Maybe even hundreds of
Speaker:pages long, 50 pages long,
Speaker:but when you can distill it
Speaker:down to one page that captures
Speaker:the most critical points
Speaker:that can be transformational
Speaker:to how a company thinks
Speaker:about its business and
Speaker:then conducts its business.
Speaker:Okay, so
Speaker:to go back over the three
Speaker:types of values, so starting
Speaker:with incremental, I think
Speaker:of that as just being an
Speaker:extra pair of hands, I
Speaker:think is kind of the way.
Speaker:So you're kind of selling an
Speaker:extra pair of hands, so you
Speaker:are kind of taking orders from
Speaker:your client and you have some
Speaker:skill and, maybe even some
Speaker:expertise, that they don't
Speaker:have, but generally, They are
Speaker:defining what they need and
Speaker:you are filling the order.
Speaker:And so, the innovative
Speaker:one, maybe that's tell
Speaker:me like how do we look at
Speaker:the business model for the
Speaker:innovative type of value?
Speaker:So I had a client where their
Speaker:business model was, SaaS.
Speaker:And they were getting
Speaker:licensing revenue.
Speaker:What they were missing
Speaker:though, was opportunities for
Speaker:additional revenue streams.
Speaker:you know, after working
Speaker:together with them and
Speaker:understanding their priorities
Speaker:better and understanding
Speaker:their customer needs
Speaker:better, we concluded that.
Speaker:Different types of
Speaker:customers needed different
Speaker:types of support.
Speaker:And so they had an opportunity
Speaker:to kind of shift their
Speaker:business model, not change the
Speaker:fundamentals of their business
Speaker:model, but shift it to expand
Speaker:it, to provide additional
Speaker:services and thus provide
Speaker:more value to their customers.
Speaker:And also, capture more
Speaker:revenue for the company.
Speaker:The other thing that.
Speaker:they were in a position to
Speaker:do because you know, one
Speaker:of the things that SaaS
Speaker:model enables is capturing
Speaker:a lot more data on use.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Of your software product.
Speaker:Maybe this starts to get
Speaker:into transformational value,
Speaker:but when a lot of times the
Speaker:data that gets captured is
Speaker:thought of as an internal
Speaker:asset and what can we learn
Speaker:about how our customers
Speaker:are using the product?
Speaker:That data can also become,
Speaker:once you perhaps anonymize
Speaker:it and massage it in
Speaker:certain ways, can also
Speaker:become an external asset
Speaker:that can transform the
Speaker:way your customers work,
Speaker:that can transform the
Speaker:way your customers think
Speaker:about their businesses.
Speaker:So, you have assets, you're
Speaker:generating assets that you're
Speaker:not even aware of, that
Speaker:your customers, your clients
Speaker:are probably generating
Speaker:assets that they're not
Speaker:even aware of how they
Speaker:can leverage more fully.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:So, part of the role of a
Speaker:consultant, Might be able to
Speaker:say, Hey, here's value that
Speaker:you're leaving on the table,
Speaker:or, here's incremental value
Speaker:that you can give to your
Speaker:customers, and then take
Speaker:incremental revenue from,
Speaker:so that shifts from just,
Speaker:I'm an extra pair of hands
Speaker:to help get things done to.
Speaker:I'm a high value thinker
Speaker:who can contribute to
Speaker:either adding innovation
Speaker:to your process, adding
Speaker:innovation to your business
Speaker:model, or transforming
Speaker:your business model and
Speaker:transforming the value that
Speaker:you deliver to your clients.
Speaker:Got it.
Speaker:And so, I mean, at some
Speaker:point I feel like when
Speaker:you were mentioning that
Speaker:transformational, that can
Speaker:be the value that we provide
Speaker:to our clients, but also,
Speaker:transformative within our
Speaker:own businesses when we are
Speaker:leveraging all the assets that
Speaker:we have available, all the
Speaker:data that is available to us.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:And you and I have talked
Speaker:about this a lot, and
Speaker:that's been part of our
Speaker:productizing services.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Conversations.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:so I've been consulting
Speaker:for 18 plus years and I've
Speaker:consulted from startups
Speaker:to global 500 companies, a
Speaker:variety of teams, a lot of
Speaker:different technologies and
Speaker:several different markets.
Speaker:And one of the things I've
Speaker:discovered along the way is
Speaker:there are common challenges.
Speaker:All of those different,
Speaker:regardless of the team size,
Speaker:regardless of the market,
Speaker:regardless of the company
Speaker:size and the technology at
Speaker:play, there are some common
Speaker:challenges and so I've been
Speaker:able to, in my business,
Speaker:create frameworks and
Speaker:methodologies that are highly
Speaker:adaptable for my clients.
Speaker:I don't have to start with
Speaker:a blank sheet of paper.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Every time I engage
Speaker:with a new client.
Speaker:I can start with, the
Speaker:frameworks are kind of
Speaker:baseline and then customize
Speaker:them or maybe more, take
Speaker:a bespoke approach in the
Speaker:context of what the client's
Speaker:needs are and the client's
Speaker:specific challenges are So
Speaker:I have gathered all this
Speaker:information from all these
Speaker:different companies that I've
Speaker:worked with to the benefit
Speaker:of all my clients and all
Speaker:my new and future clients.
Speaker:Also to the benefit of
Speaker:my business because I can
Speaker:become more effective and
Speaker:I also have potentially
Speaker:frameworks that I can license
Speaker:to other consultants and
Speaker:grow my that way as well.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Now, I know that you, I'm
Speaker:pretty sure that you don't
Speaker:have a niche, and by that
Speaker:I mean that there's a
Speaker:vertical that you work with
Speaker:specifically, but I think that
Speaker:you do have a specialization.
Speaker:Which it sounds like among
Speaker:clients that have this
Speaker:similar problem that you have
Speaker:been able to develop your
Speaker:frameworks and methodologies
Speaker:around, is that fair that,
Speaker:you seem to come into the
Speaker:same type of problem that
Speaker:you help clients with,
Speaker:even if they're different?
Speaker:I'd say the same.
Speaker:I don't wanna say type of
Speaker:problem because I think that
Speaker:narrows it a little bit.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:But organizationally,
Speaker:alignment is a key challenge.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And it's the rare company
Speaker:that doesn't have a
Speaker:challenge around alignment.
Speaker:we talked about that
Speaker:a little earlier.
Speaker:It's the rare company where
Speaker:everybody, a real simple
Speaker:alignment assessment,
Speaker:right, is go ask five
Speaker:different people in your
Speaker:company who the customer is.
Speaker:You'll get five
Speaker:different answers.
Speaker:I almost guarantee it.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:So, that core problem
Speaker:of alignment then
Speaker:has other challenges.
Speaker:the other piece of it,
Speaker:so my, primary area of
Speaker:consulting is product
Speaker:management and just like many
Speaker:other, areas of expertise,
Speaker:it's a big umbrella.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Oftentimes I might help
Speaker:my clients specifically
Speaker:with process work, help
Speaker:them uplevel their process
Speaker:and increase alignment
Speaker:within their process.
Speaker:Sometimes I might help
Speaker:my client with the
Speaker:skill levels of their
Speaker:product management team.
Speaker:Those skill levels can
Speaker:run from, how do you write
Speaker:a business case for a
Speaker:single feature to, how do
Speaker:you improve your ability
Speaker:to influence across the
Speaker:silos in the company?
Speaker:So that's, can be
Speaker:pretty far ranging.
Speaker:So, yes.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:You're right.
Speaker:I don't have a market niche.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:I do though, have a,
Speaker:range within a particular
Speaker:discipline of work that I.
Speaker:Engage with my clients on.
Speaker:Now, was there a time, a pre
Speaker:framework, pre methodology,
Speaker:time in your business, and
Speaker:what did that look like versus
Speaker:your post framework, post
Speaker:methodology?
Speaker:Yeah, so that would be
Speaker:more the incremental.
Speaker:think I've always straddled
Speaker:early in my career,
Speaker:I think I straddled
Speaker:incremental and innovative.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Because, my very first,
Speaker:even before I started
Speaker:consulting, my very first
Speaker:product management job, when
Speaker:I was gonna sit down with
Speaker:the engineers to brainstorm
Speaker:on this new product, I
Speaker:invited customer service in.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:An engineer was like,
Speaker:why are they here?
Speaker:And I said, but, well, they
Speaker:talk to customers every
Speaker:day and I imagine they have
Speaker:some insights to contribute.
Speaker:So one of my first tasks
Speaker:when I started my business,
Speaker:a previous employer called
Speaker:me up and said they needed
Speaker:some help writing some
Speaker:requirements documents
Speaker:for a new initiative,
Speaker:and so I said, great.
Speaker:I'll work on some requirements
Speaker:documentation for you.
Speaker:Now, on the one hand, that
Speaker:was definitely incremental.
Speaker:They didn't have the
Speaker:bandwidth to work on this.
Speaker:though came in and I said,
Speaker:for a requirements document,
Speaker:I'm not just gonna talk
Speaker:about feature function.
Speaker:We're gonna look at.
Speaker:How might this impact
Speaker:our sales strategy?
Speaker:How might this impact our
Speaker:operational requirements?
Speaker:How might this impact,
Speaker:documentation and education?
Speaker:How might this impact support?
Speaker:So I've always.
Speaker:Looked at things from that
Speaker:broader perspective, and
Speaker:I'm gratified that type of
Speaker:conversation now is much
Speaker:more common in the industry.
Speaker:But early in my career,
Speaker:I wasn't aware of anybody
Speaker:else taking that approach.
Speaker:So it was both incremental
Speaker:and innovative.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I
Speaker:will say, and this is I'm
Speaker:sure just me, that I hadn't
Speaker:heard the term customer
Speaker:experience like CX and before
Speaker:five years ago, but I guess
Speaker:it's been, is it fairly.
Speaker:Recent, or did I just
Speaker:miss it before that?
Speaker:No, no, no.
Speaker:I think it's a
Speaker:fairly new Yeah.
Speaker:Way of talking
Speaker:about the challenge.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:don't think there're concepts
Speaker:that came out just five years
Speaker:ago, because again, even
Speaker:from early in my career,
Speaker:I was trying to understand
Speaker:and trying to help the
Speaker:rest of the organization
Speaker:that I was working with.
Speaker:Understand.
Speaker:That it's not just the
Speaker:experience of the customer
Speaker:using the product, it's the
Speaker:experience of the customer
Speaker:engaging with the company.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:At every step along the
Speaker:way from how they discover.
Speaker:The company, how they
Speaker:define their own need.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:How they discover you as
Speaker:a company, how they first
Speaker:engage with you in terms of,
Speaker:gaining information, getting
Speaker:insight to how your offer
Speaker:might impact them, et cetera.
Speaker:And then engage from a
Speaker:business perspective.
Speaker:And then an area that I
Speaker:think often gets neglected
Speaker:in product management also
Speaker:is how do, then you might
Speaker:wanna retire that product.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:What's the experience that
Speaker:your customer has while
Speaker:you're retiring that product?
Speaker:And that's.
Speaker:Again, in terms of
Speaker:the full experience.
Speaker:So I've always
Speaker:thought that way.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And I'm gratified to see
Speaker:now that there's more
Speaker:concern given to that
Speaker:full customer experience.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:Now I
Speaker:wanna go back to one of the
Speaker:things that you said about.
Speaker:with your pre framework, pre
Speaker:methodology, business was more
Speaker:on the incremental value side.
Speaker:And so I think, by extension
Speaker:we can say that if we want
Speaker:to graduate from being that
Speaker:incremental kind of extra
Speaker:pair of hands person to
Speaker:think someone who creates
Speaker:higher value, whether, be
Speaker:the innovation or ultimately
Speaker:transformational, that we
Speaker:need to have something that's
Speaker:uniquely ours that we're
Speaker:bringing to the table.
Speaker:Yes, I agree with that
Speaker:point, and that's a common
Speaker:challenge for positioning.
Speaker:It is whatever, whether you're
Speaker:consulting or you're a company
Speaker:selling products, how do
Speaker:you differentiate yourself?
Speaker:What is the unique
Speaker:value that you bring?
Speaker:How do you instantiate
Speaker:that value and deliver
Speaker:it to your clients?
Speaker:Also, how do you talk
Speaker:about that value?
Speaker:This kind of taking me off
Speaker:to a tangent for, what
Speaker:are the keys to success?
Speaker:Certainly positioning,
Speaker:differentiation,
Speaker:and delivering high
Speaker:value and developing
Speaker:awesome relationships.
Speaker:Are those keys to success?
Speaker:My frameworks are useless if
Speaker:people don't know about them.
Speaker:That's
Speaker:true.
Speaker:That's true.
Speaker:And at the end of the day, do
Speaker:they need to know about the
Speaker:framework or do they need to
Speaker:know about the value that they
Speaker:get from working with you?
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:That's right.
Speaker:That's exactly right.
Speaker:there's the why and
Speaker:then there's the how.
Speaker:Right, exactly.
Speaker:I know there's these five
Speaker:wss and, but, there's the
Speaker:y, the who, What in the,
Speaker:how it's for, yeah, I
Speaker:thought that was, I thought
Speaker:that was a newspaper
Speaker:thing about, how to write
Speaker:newspaper articles, but yes,
Speaker:but it's also very relevant
Speaker:when you're trying to figure
Speaker:out the value that you deliver
Speaker:and who your audience is
Speaker:and et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:So, anyhow, I think I've gone
Speaker:off track here in my thinking.
Speaker:Bring us back to
Speaker:the point, Aaron.
Speaker:Oh, well, just that, having
Speaker:the frameworks and the
Speaker:methodologies that's internal
Speaker:to you, but that's how you
Speaker:get to, providing that value
Speaker:consistently, and that you
Speaker:That's right, are going to
Speaker:get that result for your
Speaker:client that you promised them.
Speaker:But at the end of the
Speaker:day, client cares about
Speaker:the result and not that,
Speaker:oh, it's your framework.
Speaker:I'm so happy It
Speaker:was your framework.
Speaker:That's right.
Speaker:It's not, theoretical,
Speaker:it's applied.
Speaker:Right, exactly.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:And the application and the
Speaker:results are what matters.
Speaker:absolutely.
Speaker:And my clients have.
Speaker:Some pretty good results.
Speaker:Yeah, that, that is fantastic.
Speaker:I talk about that a little
Speaker:bit more if you'd like.
Speaker:Well, I know that we
Speaker:wanted to talk about,
Speaker:kinda the education
Speaker:for project managers.
Speaker:Is there, tell us
Speaker:where you'd like to go there.
Speaker:So there's a couple of things.
Speaker:I first started in product
Speaker:management, there was no.
Speaker:Training available.
Speaker:There were no classes,
Speaker:there were no schools.
Speaker:every major university
Speaker:offers product management,
Speaker:education and there's a
Speaker:lot of, companies that have
Speaker:grown up around product
Speaker:management education.
Speaker:And you can be a certified
Speaker:product manager, right?
Speaker:that's a fit, right?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:As a matter of fact, I
Speaker:helped, with the local
Speaker:university, I helped define
Speaker:the certification program
Speaker:for product managers.
Speaker:Oh, cool.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:so when I first started,
Speaker:I wanna go back to that.
Speaker:I asked the hiring vp,
Speaker:were there guidelines,
Speaker:anything I should do,
Speaker:anything I should follow?
Speaker:And he is like, no.
Speaker:And I said, well, okay, as I
Speaker:learn things or create things,
Speaker:should I document them?
Speaker:He said, no.
Speaker:Which I found so interesting.
Speaker:I found that so interesting.
Speaker:But to me it's really valuable
Speaker:to pass on what we know to
Speaker:pass on what we've learned.
Speaker:And because I didn't have
Speaker:that kinda external training
Speaker:or external opportunity,
Speaker:I did invent and create a
Speaker:lot of things for myself.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Along the way.
Speaker:And I still find like product
Speaker:management is still a very
Speaker:big umbrella, as I said, and
Speaker:a lot of product managers are.
Speaker:Focused on feature function.
Speaker:And one of the biggest
Speaker:challenges I've had younger
Speaker:product managers bring to me
Speaker:is, the c e o or some other
Speaker:executive is insisting that
Speaker:we, add this new functionality
Speaker:we're already maxed out
Speaker:on our ability to deliver
Speaker:against the, schedules.
Speaker:So how do I push back?
Speaker:This is where it's very, very
Speaker:interesting to me that most
Speaker:product management people
Speaker:don't seem to understand the
Speaker:business context and don't
Speaker:seem to be able to validate
Speaker:the business context mm-hmm.
Speaker:That they're working in.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:What does it mean
Speaker:financially to the company?
Speaker:What does it mean to
Speaker:the market, et cetera.
Speaker:So what I've, Came up
Speaker:with was this one page,
Speaker:business case, right?
Speaker:So how do you write a
Speaker:simple business case?
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:The other side of that is how
Speaker:do you think more expansively,
Speaker:these are the types of
Speaker:things I wanna educate other
Speaker:product managers around.
Speaker:How do you think more
Speaker:expansively about
Speaker:your customer, right?
Speaker:And what is you really,
Speaker:your responsibility as
Speaker:the person who advocates
Speaker:for the customer?
Speaker:It's not just Listening
Speaker:to your customer is really
Speaker:important, but listening to
Speaker:the market, understanding
Speaker:what's possible, understanding
Speaker:things that your customer
Speaker:is not in a position to
Speaker:understand, anticipating
Speaker:future needs, those are all
Speaker:really important, I believe.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Because if you're just chasing
Speaker:another anecdote, if I may.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:I've done a lot of work on
Speaker:pre-market technology, and.
Speaker:What I typically do, you're
Speaker:trying to find the right
Speaker:market fit for a technology,
Speaker:is you come up with different
Speaker:scenarios, potential use
Speaker:scenarios for that technology.
Speaker:Then you go and you
Speaker:interview people.
Speaker:So I had this particular
Speaker:pre-market technology
Speaker:I was working with.
Speaker:I came up with different
Speaker:scenarios and I interviewed
Speaker:six directors of product
Speaker:management within that space.
Speaker:And I said, do you think
Speaker:this scenario would be
Speaker:interesting to your customers?
Speaker:And every single one
Speaker:of them said to me,
Speaker:nobody's asking for it.
Speaker:And I.
Speaker:Stunned by.
Speaker:Because nobody could ask
Speaker:for it, because nobody
Speaker:knew that it was possible.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:That's like Steve
Speaker:Jobs, somebody saying,
Speaker:nobody's asking for a
Speaker:camera in their phone.
Speaker:Oh, then let's not do it.
Speaker:You have to anticipating.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:so I track a lot of
Speaker:different trends in a lot
Speaker:of different technologies
Speaker:because part of what happens
Speaker:and I also like to say that
Speaker:opportunities created by
Speaker:the intersection of trends.
Speaker:So part of what happens is
Speaker:there's this trend coming
Speaker:along, and right now it
Speaker:might not be affecting
Speaker:your but if you're not
Speaker:tracking it, you won't see
Speaker:the possibility of when it
Speaker:will affect your market.
Speaker:AI potentially, yeah, Or
Speaker:various other technologies
Speaker:that we can think about.
Speaker:How are those going to
Speaker:impact your customers
Speaker:even maybe three years,
Speaker:five years down the line?
Speaker:so I also have, courseware in
Speaker:strategic product management.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Because it's important, again,
Speaker:not just to say what's the
Speaker:incremental improvement we can
Speaker:provide in 6, 12, 18 months?
Speaker:But what's the
Speaker:radical innovation and
Speaker:transformational improvements?
Speaker:We can look at, we can look
Speaker:forward to down the line.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Given that we understand
Speaker:these trends, given that
Speaker:we understand the customer
Speaker:needs more than from a
Speaker:feature function standpoint,
Speaker:et cetera, read that
Speaker:opportunity is where
Speaker:trends intersect.
Speaker:Intersect.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:That is so good.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I think we have our title.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:We evolved, let's say product
Speaker:manager can provide that
Speaker:transformational value to
Speaker:the clients because they're
Speaker:looking at the trends.
Speaker:They're not just filling
Speaker:orders, but they're looking
Speaker:ahead, seeing where the
Speaker:puck is going to be.
Speaker:right.
Speaker:Instead to help them be
Speaker:there to meet it, their
Speaker:clients be there to mean it.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Another thing I like to
Speaker:say is we can't predict
Speaker:the future, but we can
Speaker:anticipate what might happen.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:So you can't always say,
Speaker:yes, we know the puck's gonna
Speaker:be there in three years.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:But we can say, here's
Speaker:the possible places that
Speaker:puck might be given.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:different trends
Speaker:and, potential.
Speaker:do we build that agility into
Speaker:our value creation approach?
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:How do we.
Speaker:As the trends become clearer,
Speaker:be able to adjust, et cetera.
Speaker:I mean, there's a lot of meat.
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:In that conversation
Speaker:right there,
Speaker:That is very interesting.
Speaker:you surprised me
Speaker:with that one.
Speaker:I didn't know that
Speaker:was very interesting.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:And we are gonna talk
Speaker:about your courseware.
Speaker:as we wrap up, 'cause I
Speaker:do wanna talk about what.
Speaker:Offerings you have then.
Speaker:But before we get there,
Speaker:I want to talk about
Speaker:the fact that this is
Speaker:a very meta podcast.
Speaker:You know, I'm a female founder
Speaker:of an expertise based business
Speaker:that I am hoping to grow,
Speaker:so I can sell it someday.
Speaker:You're also the female
Speaker:founder of an expertise
Speaker:based business.
Speaker:So are you growing your
Speaker:business to perhaps
Speaker:sell it someday?
Speaker:That would be awesome.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:I agree.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And, I'll tell you, meeting
Speaker:you helped expand and solidify
Speaker:my mindset around that.
Speaker:And that's also one of my
Speaker:areas of improvement, right?
Speaker:Is how do I make sure The
Speaker:work that I'm doing and
Speaker:creating internally mm-hmm.
Speaker:Is done in such a way
Speaker:that it will have value
Speaker:beyond my participation
Speaker:in this business.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Nice.
Speaker:So, yes, you and I have
Speaker:explored a couple of
Speaker:things in that regards
Speaker:and certainly I mentioned
Speaker:that a little bit earlier.
Speaker:Being able to license my
Speaker:frameworks and methodologies,
Speaker:being able to train
Speaker:people in those things.
Speaker:creating courseware that will.
Speaker:Live on beyond my
Speaker:business that will
Speaker:have value to product
Speaker:managers, hopefully some
Speaker:long-term into the future.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Those are things that
Speaker:are really important.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I mean, you're doing all
Speaker:the right things, the things
Speaker:that you're doing now to
Speaker:scale your business and
Speaker:having multiple ways of the
Speaker:delivering your expertise.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:With one-on-one services, but
Speaker:also through training other
Speaker:consultants and providing
Speaker:other, Educational services.
Speaker:So you're doing all the
Speaker:right things, so I have
Speaker:no doubt you'll get there.
Speaker:So do you have a plan for
Speaker:your next chapter after you
Speaker:sell your business, which
Speaker:we know is gonna happen.
Speaker:That's so interesting because,
Speaker:That to me starts to sound
Speaker:a little bit like retirement
Speaker:and depends on how
Speaker:you define retirement.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:But I enjoy what I do so
Speaker:much at this point maybe I
Speaker:can do less of it and start
Speaker:to do more of other things.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Maybe I'll spend more
Speaker:time training people
Speaker:and not, I don't know.
Speaker:I just love what I'm doing
Speaker:and I wanna do more of it, and
Speaker:I wanna do it better, right?
Speaker:I wanna increasingly
Speaker:deliver value.
Speaker:I wanna deliver increasing
Speaker:value yes to my clients.
Speaker:I just find this to be great
Speaker:work and I really enjoy it
Speaker:and I'm sure there'll be a
Speaker:next chapter, but I don't know
Speaker:when, and I'm not quite sure
Speaker:what shape that will take.
Speaker:Yeah, I'm with
Speaker:you on that.
Speaker:It's hard to imagine just not
Speaker:working and then what, but
Speaker:then when you have a skill
Speaker:or a passion that you wanna
Speaker:share, well, don't have to get
Speaker:paid for, maybe you do still.
Speaker:but Oh, absolutely.
Speaker:There's, there's
Speaker:other ways to continue
Speaker:to provide that, right?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:I agree with you.
Speaker:And I do some of that.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Already.
Speaker:So there's two organizations
Speaker:I'm involved with.
Speaker:Well, you're,
Speaker:skipping to, am
Speaker:I going too fast?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:well, let's take
Speaker:this part out then.
Speaker:I, thought that was a perfect
Speaker:segue, but we'll wait on that.
Speaker:Well,
Speaker:it is, the perfect segue,
Speaker:but since we have a way
Speaker:that we do things around
Speaker:here, Alan Grace, so well,
Speaker:we'll come back to this.
Speaker:So, as you know, we believe
Speaker:in creating a world, a
Speaker:more equitable economy.
Speaker:So in particular, I believe
Speaker:that wealth in the hands of
Speaker:women can change the world.
Speaker:And so would you like
Speaker:to share a person or an
Speaker:organization that you admire
Speaker:who is helping create a
Speaker:more equitable economy?
Speaker:okay.
Speaker:So,
Speaker:I am a little stunned
Speaker:by the question, you
Speaker:asked it a little bit
Speaker:differently earlier.
Speaker:So I'll talk about two
Speaker:organizations that I'm
Speaker:involved with and I'll
Speaker:also say that I know a lot
Speaker:of really awesome women,
Speaker:yourself included, who are
Speaker:doing great work I'm gonna
Speaker:have to publish a list, Erin,
Speaker:because the more that I think
Speaker:about even in the moment,
Speaker:one of the organizations I
Speaker:contribute to, and we didn't
Speaker:talk about this at all,
Speaker:is Heifer International.
Speaker:And the thing I love about
Speaker:Heifer International is that
Speaker:they provide, economic engines
Speaker:to people they provide, yes.
Speaker:Animals that then can be
Speaker:leveraged, like, goats
Speaker:for milk and then the
Speaker:family sells the milk.
Speaker:I mean, it is an incredible,
Speaker:organization that provides
Speaker:the opportunity to
Speaker:leverage any donations
Speaker:in an incredible way.
Speaker:So I'd encourage people to
Speaker:look at them for, donating
Speaker:and they, work worldwide.
Speaker:an organization that I've
Speaker:been involved in for several
Speaker:years is, Women in consulting.
Speaker:we recently redefined the
Speaker:organization as a 5 0 1 C
Speaker:three, and the reason we did
Speaker:that is because we wanted
Speaker:to have more of a community,
Speaker:a larger community focus.
Speaker:One of the things women in
Speaker:consulting is working on,
Speaker:in addition to supporting
Speaker:women like ourselves mm-hmm.
Speaker:Who are already
Speaker:participating in, let's
Speaker:say the, professional
Speaker:class, the economy.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:we wanna be able to reach
Speaker:out to more women who maybe
Speaker:aren't, hadn't thought about
Speaker:consulting or contracting
Speaker:as a possibility, and
Speaker:give them pathways to that
Speaker:new type of work and a
Speaker:more economic security.
Speaker:So we're working on programs.
Speaker:That will enable us to reach
Speaker:out more to the community
Speaker:and be more effective in
Speaker:helping people broaden
Speaker:their support, their
Speaker:participation in the economy.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:The other organization
Speaker:is how women lead and,
Speaker:That organization, to my
Speaker:understanding, started
Speaker:out with a mission of
Speaker:getting more women to
Speaker:serve on public boards.
Speaker:And as we all know, there's
Speaker:a lot of evidence that
Speaker:shows that when women
Speaker:are serving on boards,
Speaker:companies are more effective
Speaker:and successful and thus
Speaker:people are more successful.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And effective.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:So, the growth that it
Speaker:provides individuals and
Speaker:the growth that it provides
Speaker:companies and employees.
Speaker:Can be, substantive.
Speaker:a few years ago also started
Speaker:a program of effectively
Speaker:advising and mentoring
Speaker:women across the world.
Speaker:And I'm actively involved with
Speaker:a entrepreneur in Nigeria.
Speaker:And, notes we can
Speaker:provide detail on that.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Who has a school
Speaker:for women and girls?
Speaker:To increase their STEM skills
Speaker:and increase their opportunity
Speaker:to participate in the local
Speaker:and the broader economy.
Speaker:That is fantastic.
Speaker:Thank you for that.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:We will, create, have links
Speaker:to all of these organizations
Speaker:in the show notes.
Speaker:So you mentioned the
Speaker:courseware that you developed
Speaker:to help educate PMs.
Speaker:So tell us about it and
Speaker:where people can find it.
Speaker:So it's still in process.
Speaker:I'm happy to offer
Speaker:classes, more bespoke.
Speaker:So I have four clients
Speaker:created this course
Speaker:where, and I customize it.
Speaker:So one of the important things
Speaker:when people are learning
Speaker:is to also have examples
Speaker:and exercises to work on.
Speaker:So when I'm doing the
Speaker:strategic product management
Speaker:course inside a company,
Speaker:I integrate examples
Speaker:That are relevant to what
Speaker:the company's doing today.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:So, they might bring in,
Speaker:Hey, we're, working on
Speaker:the business plan for this
Speaker:particular new product
Speaker:that we're gonna launch.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:That becomes the
Speaker:foundation then, for
Speaker:some of the exercises
Speaker:that we do in the course.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Whether it's sizing the market
Speaker:or coming up with specific
Speaker:pricing and packaging, or
Speaker:understanding the investment
Speaker:that's required to make this,
Speaker:product launch successful.
Speaker:The other thing I'm planning
Speaker:is to do some public webinars.
Speaker:which will focus on,
Speaker:the financial skills
Speaker:for product management.
Speaker:How does alignment affect the
Speaker:larger company and what's the
Speaker:role of executives down to
Speaker:individual contributors in
Speaker:helping to ensure alignment
Speaker:and acting as leaders in that
Speaker:type of, context, et cetera.
Speaker:So there's a lot going
Speaker:on, and I'm happy to keep
Speaker:people in the loop as
Speaker:things further develop.
Speaker:Well, great.
Speaker:Well, first I'm going to ask
Speaker:you about where people can
Speaker:find you, but just so I'm
Speaker:clear on the, target market,
Speaker:your project, Product managers
Speaker:or project managers, sorry,
Speaker:product, product managers.
Speaker:Is that for people who
Speaker:are in-house and so you're
Speaker:helping them uplevel those
Speaker:skills as an in-house person
Speaker:or as consultants or both?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Very good.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:I mean, one of the
Speaker:commitments I bring or
Speaker:endeavor to bring to every.
Speaker:Business and perhaps even
Speaker:personal relationship I have
Speaker:is that, I'll offer value.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And so I have conversations
Speaker:with people who are
Speaker:considering being consultants.
Speaker:I did a presentation for
Speaker:an organization called
Speaker:Women in Product on
Speaker:Consulting as a career path.
Speaker:So I've been involved with
Speaker:a lot of women who are
Speaker:looking at consulting and
Speaker:how they can bring value
Speaker:to clients, and certainly
Speaker:I work quite actively
Speaker:with product management
Speaker:teams and executives
Speaker:inside of the companies to
Speaker:clients that I work with.
Speaker:Fantastic.
Speaker:Thank you for that.
Speaker:I really think, delivering
Speaker:value is, part of a.
Speaker:belief system in a way, right?
Speaker:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker:And it's not just something
Speaker:that I just say, okay,
Speaker:today I'm delivering
Speaker:value tomorrow I'm not.
Speaker:That's right.
Speaker:And most of us who are
Speaker:founders of services
Speaker:based businesses, I
Speaker:mean, there's a reason.
Speaker:That we did this right.
Speaker:There's a reason we
Speaker:started our own businesses.
Speaker:'cause there was something
Speaker:that we wanted to,
Speaker:that was uniquely about
Speaker:us that we wanted to
Speaker:deliver to the world.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:And so That is, that's right.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:So Grace, where can
Speaker:people find you?
Speaker:If they wanna find out more
Speaker:about the work that you do,
Speaker:what you have planned, how can
Speaker:they keep in contact with you?
Speaker:I'm very easy to find
Speaker:I'm the only Ellen Grace
Speaker:Henson on LinkedIn.
Speaker:Oh, really?
Speaker:I don't have that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:H E N Ss o n.
Speaker:The only Ellen Grace
Speaker:Henson on LinkedIn.
Speaker:And certainly you can find me
Speaker:at E G H for Elon, e g h at.
Speaker:M K T G M E C h.com.
Speaker:That's marketing mec.com.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And
Speaker:Look at the Women in
Speaker:Consulting website.
Speaker:You'll find me there as well.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:The links for all that
Speaker:information will be in
Speaker:the show notes as well.
Speaker:Thank you very much Hung
Speaker:Grace for joining me today.
Speaker:This has been a lot of
Speaker:fun and very valuable.
Speaker:I'm glad.
Speaker:Thank you, Erin,
Speaker:for the opportunity.
