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Episode 16

E16: How NFTs, Blockchain Technologies, and the Metaverse Apply to Your Expertise Business [Asset Building] with JoAnn Holmes

Launching into Web 3.0 With Your Expertise Based Business

I was so lucky to be joined in this episode by JoAnn Holmes, an IP expert who was able to provide some amazing insights into one of the biggest tech buzzwords: Web 3.0. Even those of us who practice in IP are still learning about this new frontier, which touches on finance, connectivity, asset-building, product creation – topics that are near and dear to professionals with expertise-based businesses looking to grow. In accessible language with useful examples, Jo walked us through the topic, and it sparked so many ideas for me, as I hope it will for you. In this episode you will learn:

· The five tent poles of Web 3.0 and how it opens up new opportunities

· The amazing potential of decentralized autonomous organizations (DAOs)

· Key benefits, risks, and possibilities in cryptocurrency

· How your business can enter the Web 3.0 space

· As a bonus, Jo shares her own journey as a solopreneur, and explains why timing is important when it comes to scaling your business

This episode is filled with so many potential launch points for your business. If wonder if you are ready to capitalize on the opportunities, contact me to talk about an assessment of your business.

Attorney JoAnn Holmes, Esq. (“Jo") practices in the areas of intellectual property licensing and digital assets law - including NFTs, DAOs, the metaverse, cryptocurrencies, and blockchain tech. She helps innovative brands and content creators develop smart Web strategy, monetize IP, and negotiate successful deals. Over her 20+ year career, Jo has closed profitable contracts with respected brands like Disney, Microsoft, and the NFL. She oversees IP portfolios spanning 125+ countries, and has managed intangible assets generating over $2 billion in annual revenue. Clients have remarked: “Jo is a top notch professional who brings a wealth of experience. She knows business.” Jo's work includes one-time consultations with IP and digital asset clients to establish a sound legal foundation. She also provides recurring advisory services for evolving projects. And, she acts as Outside General Counsel for select, IP and Web3 focused companies.

Connect with JoAnn:

http://www.holmesatlaw.com

http://www.linkedin.com/in/joannholmes/

https://twitter.com/holmesatlaw

To hear Jo’s interview on Biz Chix, you can find the episode here: https://bizchix.com/517-web-3-0-and-how-it-impacts-entrepreneurs-with-joann-holmes/

We would love it if you would consider supporting JoAnn’s charity of choice: https://www.care.org

Connect with Erin and find the resources mentioned in this episode at hourlytoexit.com/podcast.

Erin's LinkedIn Page: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erinaustin/

Think Beyond IP YouTube Page: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVztXnDYnZ83oIb-EGX9IGA/videos

Music credit: Yes She Can by Tiny Music

A Podcast Launch Bestie production

Transcript
Erin Austin:

Hello, everyone.

Erin Austin:

Welcome to the hourly to exit podcast.

Erin Austin:

I am so excited.

Erin Austin:

I have a wonderful episode for you today with JoAnn Holmes and so welcome, JoAnn.

Erin Austin:

Thank you so much for joining me.

JoAnn Holmes:

It is my pleasure.

JoAnn Holmes:

I have the greatest respect for your work, Erin.

JoAnn Holmes:

Thank you for having me.

Erin Austin:

Now, I'm gonna say this cuz during our pre-talk

Erin Austin:

you described yourself as Jo.

Erin Austin:

Do you like Jo or JoAnn?

JoAnn Holmes:

Jo sounds good to me..

Erin Austin:

Jo sounds good.

Erin Austin:

Awesome.

Erin Austin:

Thank you.

Erin Austin:

So before we get into the episode, I'd love for you to introduce yourself.

JoAnn Holmes:

Thank you.

JoAnn Holmes:

So as Erin said, my name is JoAnn Holmes.

JoAnn Holmes:

I am an IPN digital asset attorney.

JoAnn Holmes:

I help clients in the Web3 space to monetize intellectual property and

JoAnn Holmes:

navigate the evolving Web3 legal landscape and negotiate successful deals.

JoAnn Holmes:

I manage intellectual property in about 140 countries.

JoAnn Holmes:

And over the course of my career, I have negotiated licensing

JoAnn Holmes:

agreements with companies like Disney, Microsoft, and the NFL.

JoAnn Holmes:

And, uh, what is very exciting at this stage of my career is to think

JoAnn Holmes:

about ways that we can create more egalitarian, intellectual property based

JoAnn Holmes:

wealth through the tools that are being created in the Web3 digital asset space.

Erin Austin:

Oh, that is so fantastic.

Erin Austin:

There's a million ways that our work intersects, but one way that it absolutely

Erin Austin:

does not intersect is the web 3.0, which is why I'm so excited to have you here.

Erin Austin:

I know nothing about it.

Erin Austin:

And I first discovered Jo on the Biz Chicks Podcast where she was talking

Erin Austin:

about web 3.0, and it blew my mind.

Erin Austin:

I had no idea that it was relevant to those of us in service based business.

Erin Austin:

And so, um, I immediately reached out to her and, and wanted to get to know her

Erin Austin:

and have her come and talk to us about it.

Erin Austin:

So, but first regarding the Biz Chicks Podcast.

Erin Austin:

My audience knows that I'm a huge fan of Natalie and her podcast.

Erin Austin:

And so in shameless attempt to get her attention since she famously does

Erin Austin:

not accept pitches for her podcast.

Erin Austin:

Tell us how you got a coveted position on Biz Chicks.

JoAnn Holmes:

Well, let me tell you it was a huge honor for me as well.

JoAnn Holmes:

I've known Natalie for a number of years now.

JoAnn Holmes:

And I listen to podcasts.

JoAnn Holmes:

Uh, if I'm not working, there's a good chance I'm listening to

JoAnn Holmes:

podcasts and I'm always trying to learn because I am a business owner.

JoAnn Holmes:

I support business leaders.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so it is great for me to, as an attorney, have context for the way that

JoAnn Holmes:

entrepreneurs and people who've grown and scaled businesses have thought about that.

JoAnn Holmes:

Many years ago I did a strategy session with Natalie and I am fairly tough to

JoAnn Holmes:

hold my attention unless I'm continuously learning, and I've just consistently found

JoAnn Holmes:

that I've learned from her over the course of years of listening to her podcast.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so we have touched base and had experiences, we have daughters

JoAnn Holmes:

around the same age and have had some similar overlaps in family and parts

JoAnn Holmes:

of the country where we have lived.

JoAnn Holmes:

So it's just been a real , joy and blessing to be a friend

JoAnn Holmes:

with her over the years.

JoAnn Holmes:

And when I got the nod, I was like, absolutely tell me when and I am there.

Erin Austin:

Yes, that is absolutely a notch in the belt.

Erin Austin:

So, and it was a fantastic episode, by the way, I will, uh, link to

Erin Austin:

it in the show notes, cuz it was so informative and definitely

Erin Austin:

changed the way I think about 3.0.

Erin Austin:

That is why we're here today.

Erin Austin:

I had been willfully ignorant.

Erin Austin:

Like, just absolutely like, no, no, no, no, no when it

Erin Austin:

came to NFTs or cryptocurrency or blockchain, I'm like, no.

Erin Austin:

And so now I'm like, okay, Joe's made it accessible to me.

Erin Austin:

I think, I think I can learn this.

Erin Austin:

So let's, let's dive in and talk about it.

Erin Austin:

I mean, typically I have kind of know where I'm going with something,

Erin Austin:

cuz I'm familiar with the topic.

Erin Austin:

I will say like everything I know about.

Erin Austin:

I learned from you on this podcast.

Erin Austin:

So I am going to, um, you know, kind of just ask some pretty broad questions

Erin Austin:

and let you take us from there.

Erin Austin:

So first, what the heck is web 3.0?

JoAnn Holmes:

Yeah, let's start at the beginning.

JoAnn Holmes:

And I'm going to borrow a little bit to set the table from Chris Dixon

JoAnn Holmes:

to talk about the transition, of web one out to web three, where we are.

JoAnn Holmes:

Are are rapidly approaching now.

JoAnn Holmes:

And I'd also like to share what I think of as the five tent poles of Web3.

JoAnn Holmes:

So if we think about web one, it was read web two was read, write and web three

JoAnn Holmes:

it's spoken to be read, write, own.

JoAnn Holmes:

So if we go back to the early two thousands late nineties, we

JoAnn Holmes:

were probably all excited that we could read the newspaper online.

JoAnn Holmes:

And, that was literally just read the web was effectively a digital magazine.

JoAnn Holmes:

And then we had evolution that was very much catapulted by mobile phones

JoAnn Holmes:

and the ability to carry around an instrument that allowed us to

JoAnn Holmes:

communicate with the world at all times.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so what that did is it moved us from just read to read, write.

JoAnn Holmes:

So I could make a Facebook post, I could share a photo on Instagram,

JoAnn Holmes:

I could offer or purchase something through the Amazon marketplace.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so, the result of that was that there were certain companies and their

JoAnn Holmes:

shareholders who gained most of the value from that phase of the internet.

JoAnn Holmes:

So, those who were our centralized marketplace or our Google as a centralized

JoAnn Holmes:

data resource or Facebook as a central communication hub, um, those companies

JoAnn Holmes:

profited handsomely, but the people using those platforms did not so much,

JoAnn Holmes:

particularly if they weren't shareholders.

JoAnn Holmes:

So this next term of the internet is really focused on moving from what

JoAnn Holmes:

I just described to read, write own.

JoAnn Holmes:

And that looks like creators starting to have more value in their participation.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so what does that mean?

JoAnn Holmes:

That means that you might form, for example, a Dow, which is a decentralized

JoAnn Holmes:

autonomous organization and the members of the Dow get to vote on the products

JoAnn Holmes:

and services that they're building.

JoAnn Holmes:

They get to, potentially own an NFT that has a value that

JoAnn Holmes:

could appreciate over time.

JoAnn Holmes:

That NFT might be an authentication tool to have access to the Dow.

JoAnn Holmes:

Um, we are in the midst, here in the United States have a lot of regulatory

JoAnn Holmes:

review happening in this space, but once we have more clarity, it may be

JoAnn Holmes:

possible for you to buy tokens the way that you buy shares of a company

JoAnn Holmes:

and have that asset appreciate or depreciate like any asset can do.

JoAnn Holmes:

So we're really moving into a space that is in many ways, akin to the early

JoAnn Holmes:

internet, where the technology and building blocks are being built out.

JoAnn Holmes:

There is admittedly volatility associated with that, but there's a lot of room

JoAnn Holmes:

for discovery and for people with talent to come into the space and think about

JoAnn Holmes:

how they would want to contribute.

JoAnn Holmes:

Um, so that's a sense of how the internet has evolved in terms of the

JoAnn Holmes:

tent poles of web three, there are five.

JoAnn Holmes:

So the first is cryptocurrency.

JoAnn Holmes:

Um, there are over 10,000 cryptocurrencies, but ones that

JoAnn Holmes:

people might be most familiar with might be Bitcoin or Ethereum.

JoAnn Holmes:

And those are currencies of digital networks that, um, facilitate transactions

JoAnn Holmes:

through computers around the world.

JoAnn Holmes:

The second is decentralized finance.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so just like we have resources in the traditional financial system for things

JoAnn Holmes:

like making payments or earning yields on cash through like a CD or a money market

JoAnn Holmes:

account or using collateral to get a loan.

JoAnn Holmes:

All of those things exist now in decentralized finance and web three.

JoAnn Holmes:

So that's the second 10 pole.

JoAnn Holmes:

The third 10 pole we've mentioned, which are NFTs or non fungible tokens.

JoAnn Holmes:

And those are really, digital assets that are a deed of ownership, like

JoAnn Holmes:

the deed to your house or your car.

JoAnn Holmes:

And then, there's a thing that's associated with that deed.

JoAnn Holmes:

So you might have a physical piece of paper, that's the deed to your house,

JoAnn Holmes:

but the thing associated with it is your physical home, where you live.

JoAnn Holmes:

The same thing happens with NFTs or non fungible tokens.

JoAnn Holmes:

You might have a token that relates to a digital piece of art or a piece

JoAnn Holmes:

of sports memorabilia or NFTs that are linked to physical real estate.

JoAnn Holmes:

So non fungible tokens are the third tent pole.

JoAnn Holmes:

Closely dovetailing into that,

JoAnn Holmes:

we just mentioned Dows or decentralized autonomous organizations.

JoAnn Holmes:

So those are the new wave of corporations and LLCs where people come together

JoAnn Holmes:

from literally all over the world, uh, for a given purpose and with a common

JoAnn Holmes:

treasury or digital bank account.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so people might come together because they want to invest together.

JoAnn Holmes:

They might come together because they wanna create a product or service.

JoAnn Holmes:

They might come together because they want to support a technology or because

JoAnn Holmes:

they want to support a charity and the members get to vote and participate

JoAnn Holmes:

in making decisions around how that organization is going to operate and how

JoAnn Holmes:

they're going to use the treasury funds.

JoAnn Holmes:

So that's the fourth, 10 pole and the fifth and final is the

JoAnn Holmes:

metaverse, which is this broad virtual interaction that we are all having

JoAnn Holmes:

and will have all over the world.

JoAnn Holmes:

Um, in online spaces.

JoAnn Holmes:

So for those who have kids, maybe your kids play Roblox or Minecraft, and

JoAnn Holmes:

that is a web two version of, um, the metaverse where corporations own those

JoAnn Holmes:

games and all of the assets, the skins and swords and all of the things that are

JoAnn Holmes:

used to play or build in those spaces.

JoAnn Holmes:

In a web three version, instead of those skins, for example, or, clothing

JoAnn Holmes:

or shoes, or what have you, that people

JoAnn Holmes:

might be using in Roblox and Minecraft.

JoAnn Holmes:

Instead, those are going to be NFTs and they're going to be assets that

JoAnn Holmes:

ideally would be interoperable.

JoAnn Holmes:

So you can take them out of one game setting and use them in another

JoAnn Holmes:

one and they will have value, just like other types of collectibles.

JoAnn Holmes:

For example, such that if other people want to own that skin,

JoAnn Holmes:

you've got the really cool,

JoAnn Holmes:

I don't know, athletic gear or you've got the really fun sneakers, right.

JoAnn Holmes:

That NFT could continue to have appreciating value because it would be

JoAnn Holmes:

yours as opposed to a skin in Roblox, that you really would be most likely

JoAnn Holmes:

offending the terms of the game if you tried to take them out and use them

JoAnn Holmes:

as an asset to buy or sell elsewise.

JoAnn Holmes:

So again, if we just do a quick recap and I know I shot a lot

JoAnn Holmes:

of information at everybody.

Erin Austin:

We might have to have a handout to go with this one.

JoAnn Holmes:

The tentpoles of Web3 are cryptocurrency, which is the monetary

JoAnn Holmes:

unit decentralized finance, which is the corollary to traditional finance, uh,

JoAnn Holmes:

NFTs, which are certificates of ownership.

JoAnn Holmes:

For all kinds of different assets Dows, which are the organizations of

JoAnn Holmes:

people all around the world who come together to work on a given purpose.

JoAnn Holmes:

And finally, the metaverse, which is the virtual space that people do and

JoAnn Holmes:

will in the future come together in to collaborate and interact with one another.

Erin Austin:

All right.

Erin Austin:

So one of the things that's always confused me about cryptocurrency,

Erin Austin:

a lot of things confused me, but about cryptocurrency in particular.

Erin Austin:

Where does the original value in the cryptocurrency come from?

Erin Austin:

Like, is there something behind it how does the value get into cryptocurrency?

JoAnn Holmes:

Absolutely.

JoAnn Holmes:

So I know that you share this with your audience, but as a fellow attorney, let

JoAnn Holmes:

me just remind everyone that what I'm sharing here is not legal or financial

JoAnn Holmes:

advice and especially in a nascent and volatile space, like web three and

JoAnn Holmes:

cryptocurrencies, it's a great idea to speak to your financial advisor or

JoAnn Holmes:

your legal counsel to get the kind of support that you

JoAnn Holmes:

need to make good decisions.

JoAnn Holmes:

There is, uh, a term in web free called do your own research.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so I'm a huge fan of people finding reputable resources and

JoAnn Holmes:

checking and double checking anything you hear from any one resource.

JoAnn Holmes:

As we're recording the podcast in the spring of 2022, there's a lot

JoAnn Holmes:

of volatility happening in financial markets, including the crypto markets.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so Erin, to answer your question, um, where does the value come from?

JoAnn Holmes:

If we think back historically, humans have traded lots of things over the

JoAnn Holmes:

course of time, to express value and we as Americans now, Use a standard

JoAnn Holmes:

monetary unit called the dollar and it is backed by the full faith

JoAnn Holmes:

and credit of the United States.

JoAnn Holmes:

But it's also backed by the fact that we believe that dollars have value.

JoAnn Holmes:

There are people all over the world whose nations have currency that is

JoAnn Holmes:

not as stable as we have been fortunate to enjoy here in the United States.

JoAnn Holmes:

So effectively any monetary unit is going to be the result of

JoAnn Holmes:

people believing that it has value.

JoAnn Holmes:

As I mentioned before, there are over 10,000 different cryptocurrencies.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so it might be useful to break them down into two types.

JoAnn Holmes:

So one type of cryptocurrency like Bitcoin, E saw for Solana, all of these

JoAnn Holmes:

are going to be the coins of a blockchain.

JoAnn Holmes:

And what is a blockchain?

JoAnn Holmes:

It's open source software that serves as a digital ledger.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so,

JoAnn Holmes:

if I wanted to pay you for, creating a piece of digital art, then

JoAnn Holmes:

you would set a price for that.

JoAnn Holmes:

And we would use our digital wallets to be able to transfer that.

JoAnn Holmes:

And one of the ways that we might transfer your digital art for my monetary

JoAnn Holmes:

compensation is through using east, which is the coin of the Ethereum network.

JoAnn Holmes:

Ethereum blockchain is a network where people are able

JoAnn Holmes:

to conduct transactions, right?

JoAnn Holmes:

So it is, again, just a blockchain is just open source software.

JoAnn Holmes:

We all interact with open source software every day.

JoAnn Holmes:

And the currency of a blockchain is going to be its coin.

JoAnn Holmes:

The coin of Ethereum is E the coin of Bitcoin is a little confusing,

JoAnn Holmes:

cuz it's also called Bitcoin.

JoAnn Holmes:

The coin of Solana is gonna be solve outside of that, there are thousands

JoAnn Holmes:

of cryptocurrencies that are not coins because they don't have their

JoAnn Holmes:

own underlying blockchain, right.

JoAnn Holmes:

So they might be built on Ethereum or they might be built on some other blockchain.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so when we're thinking about where does the value come from?

JoAnn Holmes:

It comes from the core economics of any monetary unit and thinking about, is

JoAnn Holmes:

there scarcity or is there an infinite number of the cryptocurrency Bitcoin, for

JoAnn Holmes:

example, uh, is coded such that there will never be more than 21 million of them.

JoAnn Holmes:

So the value in a cryptocurrency is going to

JoAnn Holmes:

depend on things like people's belief that it has value network effects of

JoAnn Holmes:

people coming into the space and being willing to pay for that coin or that

JoAnn Holmes:

larger cryptocurrency as it goes up or down, it's going to depend on the utility.

JoAnn Holmes:

So, the Ethereum blockchain network has a lot of traffic because

JoAnn Holmes:

lots of developers are building applications on that blockchain.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so anytime there's popularity in an asset, then there's going to be a

JoAnn Holmes:

potentially price appreciation, right?

JoAnn Holmes:

So there's no one simple answer around where the value comes from.

JoAnn Holmes:

And for a lot of reasons, including regulatory uncertainty, there are

JoAnn Holmes:

people who are going to feel most comfortable staying out of the space.

JoAnn Holmes:

But if you are willing to do your research in any given cryptocurrency,

JoAnn Holmes:

and one is not the same as the next.

JoAnn Holmes:

It is worthwhile to do your research, understand why any given cryptocurrency

JoAnn Holmes:

has the value that it does look at how it has trended over time.

JoAnn Holmes:

Look at what macroeconomic factors impact its value and maybe

JoAnn Holmes:

start, if you're going to get into the space, with no more than you

JoAnn Holmes:

are willing to experiment with, to learn and understand whether it's

JoAnn Holmes:

a good space for you to participate in terms of an investment asset.

Erin Austin:

Wow.

Erin Austin:

Okay.

Erin Austin:

Got it.

Erin Austin:

Why, why so many?

Erin Austin:

Is it.

Erin Austin:

Were there specific to different types of industries or locations

Erin Austin:

or, or all of the above?

JoAnn Holmes:

It's because anyone can spin up a cryptocurrency at any time.

JoAnn Holmes:

You and I could do it right now.

JoAnn Holmes:

They don't have to be backed by anything.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so, because we're talking about over 10,000 different assets, it's like

JoAnn Holmes:

saying, why does this stock have value?

JoAnn Holmes:

Right?

JoAnn Holmes:

Like there are so many stocks that are traded on different

JoAnn Holmes:

markets across the world that have different value in a market.

JoAnn Holmes:

And that value is going to.

JoAnn Holmes:

Up or down over the course of time.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so it's really necessary to, again, do your own research and

JoAnn Holmes:

understand what are you investing in?

JoAnn Holmes:

What are the reasons why it has the value that it does?

JoAnn Holmes:

What are the reasons why that value might fluctuate?

JoAnn Holmes:

Stablecoin, for example, are

JoAnn Holmes:

one of the fundamental currencies of the web three space, because

JoAnn Holmes:

they're supposed to be pegged to the us dollar or the Euro or the yen.

JoAnn Holmes:

But even stable currencies can have differences in the reasons why they

JoAnn Holmes:

maintain their value or they don't.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so there's not one way to explain, um, cryptocurrency at large.

JoAnn Holmes:

There absolutely are scams and bad actors.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so I always encourage people to spend some time and learn the space.

JoAnn Holmes:

Don't succumb to FOMO.

JoAnn Holmes:

Don't jump in because someone told you to, understand that with any nascent

JoAnn Holmes:

technology, and we are still very much in the early stages, there's

JoAnn Holmes:

going to be a lot of volatility and even people with good intentions are

JoAnn Holmes:

going to sometimes make bad decisions.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so.

JoAnn Holmes:

I think where our money is, we tend to have attention.

JoAnn Holmes:

Understanding your risk tolerance, maybe not gambling, anything you can't afford

JoAnn Holmes:

to lose, but just understanding the space.

JoAnn Holmes:

And if you feel more comfortable, for example, amongst the listeners

JoAnn Holmes:

to saying, I don't really know that I want to own a cryptocurrency,

JoAnn Holmes:

but I think there's promise in this technology, then maybe you invest in

JoAnn Holmes:

traditional stocks that offer products or services to the web three space.

JoAnn Holmes:

So there are many different ways that you can have exposure in this space.

JoAnn Holmes:

It all depends on what you want to achieve and what your confidence level is in

JoAnn Holmes:

keeping abreast of how the space evolves.

Erin Austin:

Now I know you're not gonna make a prediction, but do you think that

Erin Austin:

generally that as this area matures, that automatically lots of these are gonna

Erin Austin:

just fall away in that one or two or a dozen or whatever it will be, will kind

Erin Austin:

of rise to the top and be the standards.

Erin Austin:

And everyone else will just be kind of go to the way of the beta max.

JoAnn Holmes:

Yeah.

JoAnn Holmes:

I mean, I think you make a great, analogy there, Erin in.

JoAnn Holmes:

We don't know which technologies are going to prevail.

JoAnn Holmes:

I mean, I've earned my living for over 20 years as an IP and technology attorney.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so this is something that I'm just fascinated by personally.

JoAnn Holmes:

And, and it is, it's something that I am so interested in that I've

JoAnn Holmes:

pivoted my career to focus in this space, but that having been said, I

JoAnn Holmes:

don't know that anyone can say with

JoAnn Holmes:

absolute confidence that we know which technologies are going to win in the

JoAnn Holmes:

earliest stages of, of my starting to use the internet consistently in the

JoAnn Holmes:

late 90s and early 2000s I couldn't have imagined how integrated the

JoAnn Holmes:

internet would become into our lives.

JoAnn Holmes:

And in effectively every facet of my day from waking up to going to

JoAnn Holmes:

sleep, there's something I'm doing

JoAnn Holmes:

that's an engagement with the internet.

JoAnn Holmes:

I couldn't have imagined Airbnb and we'd go live in strangers homes on

JoAnn Holmes:

vacation Or that we would get in the car with strangers using Lyft or Uber.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so I think, um, the volatility and the unknowns are to be expected.

JoAnn Holmes:

And it's a question of what is your comfort level with

JoAnn Holmes:

the unknown and how much

JoAnn Holmes:

risk is anyone given person willing to take?

JoAnn Holmes:

I think there are absolutely many cryptocurrencies and many

JoAnn Holmes:

technologies, frankly, that are going to fall off over the course of time.

JoAnn Holmes:

Some things might be ahead of their time.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so I think that it is just an issue of.

JoAnn Holmes:

Again, some people want set it and forget it.

JoAnn Holmes:

They wanna buy the S and P 500 and they want that to be the end of

JoAnn Holmes:

their investment participation.

JoAnn Holmes:

And others want to be at the avant guard of technology.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so it's really a question around where is your risk tolerance?

JoAnn Holmes:

Where are you interested?

JoAnn Holmes:

Where is your natural curiosity?

JoAnn Holmes:

Are you someone who wants to go down the rabbit holes and learn

JoAnn Holmes:

those five different tent poles?

JoAnn Holmes:

Some people, you know, don't have an interest in investing in certain

JoAnn Holmes:

aspects of web three, but do others, some people will work for a DAO for

JoAnn Holmes:

example, but they don't buy or sell NFTs.

JoAnn Holmes:

I own, as I think you now exactly one NFT and I bought it, not as an investment,

JoAnn Holmes:

I bought it because it was another black woman whose focus is to bring more

JoAnn Holmes:

women of color into the web three space.

JoAnn Holmes:

And I just wanted to support her because I believed in what she did.

JoAnn Holmes:

I wasn't expecting I would be able to retire off the asset.

JoAnn Holmes:

I was just trying to show my support.

JoAnn Holmes:

There are people who work, as I said in DAOs because they want to be able to

JoAnn Holmes:

create something that they don't have a way to be able to participate in creating

JoAnn Holmes:

in our traditional business ecosystems.

JoAnn Holmes:

There are people who are in DAOs because during the pandemic.

JoAnn Holmes:

Certain doctors were able to support patients through using maybe Oculus

JoAnn Holmes:

or metas, uh, virtual reality glasses, or, you know, there are so many ways

JoAnn Holmes:

that are promising and fruitful and I think will be beneficial to society.

JoAnn Holmes:

There are others who I think do not have good intentions

JoAnn Holmes:

and are taking advantage of

JoAnn Holmes:

the fact that we're in the early stages of this, but I think based on having

JoAnn Holmes:

listened to your podcast, that your audience is a pretty savvy group.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so finding good resources, I'll give you one, for example,

JoAnn Holmes:

I I'm a visual learner.

JoAnn Holmes:

I really like to go on YouTube and watch whiteboard crypto, um, because they draw

JoAnn Holmes:

out concepts and then I can understand.

JoAnn Holmes:

Oh, okay.

JoAnn Holmes:

That makes sense to me.

JoAnn Holmes:

Or there's a new idea that I got just introduced to let me go

JoAnn Holmes:

read or listen to a podcast or.

JoAnn Holmes:

Watch something on YouTube or talk to people in my peer group.

JoAnn Holmes:

And try to explore that more.

JoAnn Holmes:

I've I've dedicated a lot of time in the space and it's

JoAnn Holmes:

still always a learning process.

Erin Austin:

Wow.

Erin Austin:

Okay.

Erin Austin:

So you have mentioned DAOs a few times, and that was one of the

Erin Austin:

things that really kind of struck me when I first heard about you.

Erin Austin:

And so let's double back on what that is.

Erin Austin:

And so you made the analogy to, you know, LLCs and corporations.

Erin Austin:

Are they legal entities?

JoAnn Holmes:

It depends.

JoAnn Holmes:

So, you know, Erin, you and I, um, I imagine that we are

JoAnn Holmes:

not dissimilar in that one.

JoAnn Holmes:

Our first duty as counsel, as attorneys is to, think about putting

JoAnn Holmes:

our client's best interest first.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so that is called our fiduciary duty.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so when I am speaking to my clients, my very first intention

JoAnn Holmes:

is to protect them and their personal assets and their families.

JoAnn Holmes:

the reality is when people come together for a common purpose with

JoAnn Holmes:

a bank account, which is the way that DAOs are sometimes simplified.

JoAnn Holmes:

In the absence of having some kind of company rapper like an LLC or a

JoAnn Holmes:

corporation, the default is going to be to a general partnership under the

JoAnn Holmes:

laws of the United States, which means there's joint and several liability.

JoAnn Holmes:

You have liability for what the other members are doing,

JoAnn Holmes:

and you don't have control.

JoAnn Holmes:

Over what the other members are doing.

JoAnn Holmes:

And the reality in the us is that we are a very litigious society.

JoAnn Holmes:

And effectively anybody can Sue anybody for anything.

JoAnn Holmes:

It doesn't even have to be a, a just claim.

JoAnn Holmes:

It can be a claim that then a court has to decide whether it should move forward.

JoAnn Holmes:

And I'm very fortunate that in my work, I am speaking to people who

JoAnn Holmes:

have good intentions in this space.

JoAnn Holmes:

One of my first thoughts, if they're talking about a DAO, is that risk

JoAnn Holmes:

exposure of a general partnership.

JoAnn Holmes:

There is an ethos in the web's.

JoAnn Holmes:

Three space that is very much grounded in community.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so there is a balancing act between respecting the ethos of the space and

JoAnn Holmes:

the reality that law still applies.

JoAnn Holmes:

Uh, and so, you know, one of the things that might happen is.

JoAnn Holmes:

And we're still very early.

JoAnn Holmes:

The Biden administration issued an executive order for regulatory

JoAnn Holmes:

bodies across the federal government here in the United States to take

JoAnn Holmes:

a look at digital assets and think about how we can have effective and

JoAnn Holmes:

useful regulation of this space.

JoAnn Holmes:

For the protection of all kinds of people who are coming in

JoAnn Holmes:

and participating in web three.

JoAnn Holmes:

So from the perspective of thinking about the laws that apply and what DAO members

JoAnn Holmes:

want to be mindful of, there's two things.

JoAnn Holmes:

There's a regulatory or statutory side.

JoAnn Holmes:

You've got agencies like the securities in exchange commission.

JoAnn Holmes:

Um, the CFT, the, consumer financial protection.

Erin Austin:

Okay.

JoAnn Holmes:

Bureau, that's it.

JoAnn Holmes:

But there are a number of, uh, us federal regulatory agencies

JoAnn Holmes:

who are looking at this space.

JoAnn Holmes:

Then you have a thing called the plaintiffs bar and for the audience,

JoAnn Holmes:

what that is, are attorneys who are plaintiffs, who file lawsuits,

JoAnn Holmes:

and really look at that gray area in the law and how people are acting and will

JoAnn Holmes:

use our legal system to argue through whether someone has behaved in a way

JoAnn Holmes:

that's in compliance with the law or not.

JoAnn Holmes:

So what that means is we've got the regulatory side of things and

JoAnn Holmes:

the litigation side of things that both in real time are impacting

JoAnn Holmes:

the evolving legal landscape in web three.

JoAnn Holmes:

So going back to thinking through DAOs, when I'm speaking to people

JoAnn Holmes:

who are interested in Dows, my first principle is protect yourself, protect

JoAnn Holmes:

your members, which is a good reason to set up an LLC or a corporation,

JoAnn Holmes:

depending on what the objectives are.

JoAnn Holmes:

There is in the state of Wyoming, a concept of a Wyoming DAO LLC,

JoAnn Holmes:

and that is a version one.

JoAnn Holmes:

The legislation that set that up is, a reflection of the fact that

JoAnn Holmes:

in the United States, our, our given states serve as incubators to try

JoAnn Holmes:

new theories and see how they work.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so, um, it's not something that I think is without its flaws, but if we

JoAnn Holmes:

fall back to what we're accustomed to in terms of LLCs and corporations, as long

JoAnn Holmes:

as someone is doing the things that need to be done to maintain the protections

JoAnn Holmes:

of those kinds of organizations, that is something to think about.

JoAnn Holmes:

So what does that look like?

JoAnn Holmes:

A group of people come together and say, we want to create a product or service

JoAnn Holmes:

and offer it to a marketplace, okay.

JoAnn Holmes:

Well then it's a good idea to have a conversation with an attorney about

JoAnn Holmes:

setting up an LLC or a corporation so that you were doing business through the

JoAnn Holmes:

protection of that entity rather than

JoAnn Holmes:

exposing yourself as general partners.

JoAnn Holmes:

I've mentioned a few times that DAOs are a group of people with a

JoAnn Holmes:

common cause and a bank account.

JoAnn Holmes:

That bank account is referred to as a treasury.

JoAnn Holmes:

And most often it is a digital wallet on a blockchain, right?

JoAnn Holmes:

And there's cryptocurrency as the assets in that treasury.

JoAnn Holmes:

Well, some people have authority to move money in and out of that treasury.

JoAnn Holmes:

If you are someone who is a leader in the DAO, particularly if you are

JoAnn Holmes:

someone who has authority to move funds in and out of that treasury, you

JoAnn Holmes:

have a higher target, um, in terms of your risk profile, if you're acting

JoAnn Holmes:

outside of the protections of an LLC or a corporation as a DAO member.

JoAnn Holmes:

So that's all the more reason you wanna think about protecting yourself, but

JoAnn Holmes:

there are some new innovative things that.

JoAnn Holmes:

I cannot speak to the audience and say are without risk, but are closer

JoAnn Holmes:

to the safe side of regulation.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so one good example that I like to use is Beyonce because I like Beyonce.

JoAnn Holmes:

So there are several different Beyonce fan clubs, and let's say,

JoAnn Holmes:

Beyonce said, I'm going to create her fans are called the beehive.

JoAnn Holmes:

So if Beyonce said I'm going to create a beehive DAO, and I'm going

JoAnn Holmes:

to take 5% of my ticket sales from a concert, and I'm gonna put that money

JoAnn Holmes:

in the treasury of the beehive Dow.

JoAnn Holmes:

Now she might say, I want my fans to participate in raising

JoAnn Holmes:

funds for the treasury as well.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so, um, if you would like to buy an NFT of me from my concert, right.

JoAnn Holmes:

And an NFT is a nonedible token, it's a deed of ownership

JoAnn Holmes:

linked to some kind of asset.

JoAnn Holmes:

So the asset might be a photograph of Beyonce on stage, or even a video

JoAnn Holmes:

of Beyonce on stage that, um, you can only buy, if you know this, you buy

JoAnn Holmes:

this and it is your authentication tool into the beehive DAO, right.

JoAnn Holmes:

And the funds that you paid to get that

JoAnn Holmes:

digital piece of art of Beyonce, all those funds are also

JoAnn Holmes:

going to go into the treasury.

JoAnn Holmes:

So let's say theoretically, she's given 5% of her ticket sales to the beehive

JoAnn Holmes:

DAO and people have bought NFTs to remember their experience at her concert

JoAnn Holmes:

that they wanna keep in their digital wallet and maybe show at their house.

JoAnn Holmes:

It's a flex with their friends that I was at the best Beyonce concert ever, right.

JoAnn Holmes:

So let's say 10 million have been raised for the beehive DAO.

JoAnn Holmes:

Now, if you own that NFT, then you are a member of the beehive DAO and you

JoAnn Holmes:

might get to do things like vote on what charities the beehive DAO should support.

JoAnn Holmes:

Um, Beyonce has supported other up and coming artists, right?

JoAnn Holmes:

So maybe some portion of the treasury, the membership will vote and say,

JoAnn Holmes:

we wanna support this artist.

JoAnn Holmes:

And we're going to give some component of the funds to, to, to launch this

JoAnn Holmes:

artist's career who we all believe in.

JoAnn Holmes:

It might be, we know that Beyonce has a partnership with Adida.

JoAnn Holmes:

For her Ivy park athletic line, it might be that there's one piece in that line

JoAnn Holmes:

you can only buy if you are a member of the beehive, right?

JoAnn Holmes:

So that's a product service link.

JoAnn Holmes:

It might be that when she's on tour, there is a closed audience

JoAnn Holmes:

of 20 people who get to meet with her before or after the concert.

JoAnn Holmes:

But the only way that you can get access to that, you know, 20 group

JoAnn Holmes:

of 20 people who can see her is if you're a member of the beha Dow.

JoAnn Holmes:

So effectively, what we've done is not looked to create a security, not

JoAnn Holmes:

something that's akin to a share in a corporation, but something that gives

JoAnn Holmes:

members a component of governance around how that treasury runs, a piece of, um,

JoAnn Holmes:

access to the celebrity, because it'd be super cool to get to see Beyonce before,

JoAnn Holmes:

after a concert and an opportunity to buy a product or service associated with

JoAnn Holmes:

her that only members get access to.

JoAnn Holmes:

So in some ways it's a more modern form of a fan club.

JoAnn Holmes:

And over the course of time, once we have more regulatory clarity, you know,

JoAnn Holmes:

there might be tokens associated with being in the Beyonce fan club and maybe

JoAnn Holmes:

those tokens trade on a marketplace with value that appreciates or depre.

JoAnn Holmes:

There's a lot, going back to the Airbnb and Lyft examples of the

JoAnn Holmes:

early stages of the internet.

JoAnn Holmes:

There's a lot we don't know right now, but the example that I was making around

JoAnn Holmes:

the ethos of web three, being community value within the regulatory guidance

JoAnn Holmes:

that we net have now, as we're speaking today in the spring of 2022, that example

JoAnn Holmes:

of Beyonce, um, being who she is with her corporation, that I'm sure is very

JoAnn Holmes:

well organized and having an arm that is a DAO that gives her truest fans an

JoAnn Holmes:

opportunity to feel like they have a more meaningful way to connect with her,

JoAnn Holmes:

that is one of the current creative ways that DAOs can be used.

Erin Austin:

That is awesome.

Erin Austin:

So you covered a lot of territory there and, but one of the things I

Erin Austin:

wanna, um, follow up on is how we're going to protect members of DAOs.

Erin Austin:

And I'm thinking of, you know, the state by state protections that are

Erin Austin:

coming online for data protections.

Erin Austin:

And so I'm hoping very much that behind the administration or the

Erin Austin:

federal government will get ahead of this to make sure that we don't

Erin Austin:

have the problems that we're having on other forms of protections, like

Erin Austin:

data protections, even, you know, franchises lately have been coming up

Erin Austin:

a lot and that are all state by state.

Erin Austin:

So.

Erin Austin:

Is the federal government ready to kind of get ahead of, or well, behind I'm clearly

Erin Austin:

behind, like where are they in that kind of understanding web 3.0 and making

Erin Austin:

sure there's some protections around it?

JoAnn Holmes:

To my understanding, uh, right now, different regulatory

JoAnn Holmes:

agencies have some disagreements in place, the commodities regulatory

JoAnn Holmes:

agency is disagreeing with securities and exchange commission around which

JoAnn Holmes:

of them should have jurisdiction over which digital assets.

JoAnn Holmes:

Uh, so I think that there is a lot of uncertainty and we have to be mindful

JoAnn Holmes:

as you started to allude to Erin, we don't only have federal regulation.

JoAnn Holmes:

We also.

JoAnn Holmes:

State level regulation.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so, depending on, let's say for example, what a cryptocurrency exchange

JoAnn Holmes:

is doing, they might be deemed as money service providers or money transmitters.

JoAnn Holmes:

And in some cases, every one of the 50 states has their own applicable laws.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so there's a real maze of regulation that needs to be managed, not to mention

JoAnn Holmes:

the fact that web three is global.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so, even if we comply with the various states and federal law at the us level, if

JoAnn Holmes:

you have customers outside of the states, which most cryptocurrency exchanges for

JoAnn Holmes:

example are going to have, then you've got laws of potentially every country in

JoAnn Holmes:

the world that you've got to think about.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so I.

JoAnn Holmes:

There is no one single answer.

JoAnn Holmes:

I can tell you that some cryptocurrency exchanges for

JoAnn Holmes:

example, will try to gate off.

JoAnn Holmes:

Um, let's say for example, us citizens to try to be outside the guise of us laws.

JoAnn Holmes:

We know, particularly when we're talking about privacy law.

JoAnn Holmes:

the GDPR, which is the, the, you know, now famous European privacy legislation

JoAnn Holmes:

has a long arm reach with the intention of protecting European citizens, no

JoAnn Holmes:

matter where they are in the world.

JoAnn Holmes:

And then when you have different countries who have different laws

JoAnn Holmes:

for their citizens, no matter where they are in the world, I

JoAnn Holmes:

will say it's not boring.

JoAnn Holmes:

if we add to that, uh, then we also realize that there are ways that you can

JoAnn Holmes:

have digital wallets that are not going to be transparent as to who owns them.

JoAnn Holmes:

So let's say that you are on an exchange like Coinbase, for

JoAnn Holmes:

example, they are going to be know.

JoAnn Holmes:

And anti money laundering standards and compliance that a, an established

JoAnn Holmes:

cryptocurrency exchange like Coinbase is going to be very careful to comply with.

JoAnn Holmes:

So that means when you're setting up an account, you're going to need

JoAnn Holmes:

to submit your driver's license or passport so that they can verify.

JoAnn Holmes:

That you are, who you say you are.

JoAnn Holmes:

So that frankly there can be enforcement against those who are bad actors.

JoAnn Holmes:

But the reality of the blockchain space is that it is in many ways

JoAnn Holmes:

created to circumvent middle actors like financial institutions it's in

JoAnn Holmes:

many ways created to be peer to peer.

JoAnn Holmes:

And, and one of the things to think about is we are often looking at this from

JoAnn Holmes:

the perspective of Americans, right?

JoAnn Holmes:

And so we have access to banks, to credit unions, to credit cards, to

JoAnn Holmes:

newer digital FinTech resources, where we really don't have to worry

JoAnn Holmes:

about the ability to move money.

JoAnn Holmes:

whereas much of the world does not have access to the traditional financial

JoAnn Holmes:

institutions, or if you're someone who works in the developed world, but you're

JoAnn Holmes:

sending remittances back home to your family in a part of the world that doesn't

JoAnn Holmes:

have the financial blessings that we have

JoAnn Holmes:

for example, in the United States, you might be paying a, a middle institution

JoAnn Holmes:

like a Western union, a substantial fee.

JoAnn Holmes:

You might try to send a wire and for reasons outside of your control,

JoAnn Holmes:

the bank decides they're not going to send that wire through.

JoAnn Holmes:

You don't have to be a bad actor to not have been well served by

JoAnn Holmes:

our current financial systems.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so when we're talking about regulation, we are still in an early

JoAnn Holmes:

stage, but at the same time, we're talking about this on a global basis

JoAnn Holmes:

with people who are approaching it from very different financial circumstances.

Erin Austin:

Gotcha.

Erin Austin:

So this is, I mean, far reaching conversation, but I'm gonna drag us back.

Erin Austin:

To our audience, which is the service based expertise based business.

Erin Austin:

And so, uh, a lot of us are creating online communities and we're

Erin Austin:

looking at, in particular, how do we build assets on our business?

Erin Austin:

You know, our hourly to exit podcast is about building a

Erin Austin:

business that has exclusivity in it.

Erin Austin:

We are owning assets, we're building a business that would have

Erin Austin:

value to a potential purchaser.

Erin Austin:

So.

Erin Austin:

Where in the web 3.0, do we fall?

JoAnn Holmes:

I love this question, Erin.

JoAnn Holmes:

I mean, I'm like you a long time intellectual property

JoAnn Holmes:

licensing attorney, and I love.

JoAnn Holmes:

Helping my client understand how to monetize their IP assets.

JoAnn Holmes:

Sometimes that comes in the form of expertise.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so if the audience is listening and you have a background in finance, you

JoAnn Holmes:

are a CPA, you are a financial advisor,

JoAnn Holmes:

you perhaps help to manage the treasury within a corporate entity, you are

JoAnn Holmes:

immediately going to have value in this space because so many corporations

JoAnn Holmes:

and so many retail investors and, and so many people just trying to,

JoAnn Holmes:

frankly, do their taxes are really in need of quality resources to help them

JoAnn Holmes:

understand what they should be doing.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so.

JoAnn Holmes:

If, uh, if you do a Google search for CPA and crypto, or for corporate

JoAnn Holmes:

treasury and crypto, uh, or for financial advisor and crypto, or you do those same

JoAnn Holmes:

searches, not on Google, but in LinkedIn look and see what's being written.

JoAnn Holmes:

What podcasts are out there, what YouTube videos are out there.

JoAnn Holmes:

Look at what people in your industry are doing in the space to give you

JoAnn Holmes:

clues around what might be interesting for you and what kind of value.

JoAnn Holmes:

So if we continue with the example of a financial planner and you have

JoAnn Holmes:

clients coming to you saying, I want

JoAnn Holmes:

exposure to this space.

JoAnn Holmes:

Maybe you develop a proprietary system to help a client understand

JoAnn Holmes:

for your risk tolerance.

JoAnn Holmes:

This is a reasonable percentage of your portfolio to invest in crypto assets.

JoAnn Holmes:

Maybe you do some research and look back at legacy and see, well in a prosperous

JoAnn Holmes:

crypto portfolio, what component of that is, um, and going back to some of the

JoAnn Holmes:

terms we used before, bitcoin Ethereum or Solana, which are sometimes called layer

JoAnn Holmes:

one coins or the currency of a blockchain.

JoAnn Holmes:

What component of a successful portfolio includes those types of coins versus NFTs?

JoAnn Holmes:

Um, does it make sense?

JoAnn Holmes:

Maybe you're thinking, wow, there's a concept that I'd really love to pursue.

JoAnn Holmes:

I have a friend overseas, should we come together and form a DAO around this?

JoAnn Holmes:

Right.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so, um, that DAO again is going to have a treasury.

JoAnn Holmes:

It's going to have some component of funds that need to be managed.

JoAnn Holmes:

Do you want to build some intellectual property around best practices

JoAnn Holmes:

for DAO treasury management?

JoAnn Holmes:

Whatever your skillset is, be it finance, marketing, legal, medicine for that matter

JoAnn Holmes:

if you have a professional expertise,

JoAnn Holmes:

there is likely to be a space for you where you can build proprietary

JoAnn Holmes:

assets in the web three space.

JoAnn Holmes:

Because if we step back to the late nineties and early two thousands, as

JoAnn Holmes:

we've spoken about a few times, um, during our conversation today, Could

JoAnn Holmes:

I have imagined, I mean, I, I made a bet in 1999 when I graduated from law

JoAnn Holmes:

school, that intellectual property was going to continue to be in demand.

JoAnn Holmes:

But could I have imagined that all of web three would be intellectual property?

JoAnn Holmes:

No, I wouldn't have even known what web three was.

JoAnn Holmes:

So if, if you have an interest in this space, what I love

JoAnn Holmes:

particularly for traditionally marginalized communities is you have.

JoAnn Holmes:

One of the very rare instances where everybody's on equal

JoAnn Holmes:

footing, we're all so early.

JoAnn Holmes:

We're all being humbled by how much we don't know.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so if you get in the space and take an in a genuine interest, uh, really take

JoAnn Holmes:

the time to get knowledgeable and educate yourself, I'm pretty sure ideation will

JoAnn Holmes:

start to happen around unmet needs in the space where you can provide value and

JoAnn Holmes:

types of intellectual property that you can build up to support your community

JoAnn Holmes:

and offer as a product or service.

Erin Austin:

That is great.

Erin Austin:

We do talk a lot about niches and about specialization here

Erin Austin:

and how important that is.

Erin Austin:

Service providers, especially if we're small, um, having that, like having that

Erin Austin:

unique market position is hugely important to rise above the noise and, uh, to be

Erin Austin:

known as that go-to person, in your space.

Erin Austin:

And so, yeah, that is a great idea to if this is of interest to you, to

Erin Austin:

add this as a vertical for, for your business and, um, And that there

Erin Austin:

would be a lot of opportunities there.

Erin Austin:

So you also mentioned, uh, you know, one of the things you started with

Erin Austin:

actually is working with, disadvantaged communities and a way to help those who

Erin Austin:

have, um, less access to certain services.

Erin Austin:

So tell me, like, how are you, working in that space and using

Erin Austin:

your knowledge in this area?

JoAnn Holmes:

So, uh, just to give a little bit of context

JoAnn Holmes:

again, I started practicing an intellectual property in 1999.

JoAnn Holmes:

I'm also a single mom and I've been, been a single mom my entire career.

JoAnn Holmes:

So when I was a baby lawyer, I was also a new mom.

JoAnn Holmes:

And literally just trying to keep all of these things, moving forward,

JoAnn Holmes:

not harm my child and not harm my clients as I was learning how

JoAnn Holmes:

to manage both at the same time.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so I was learning, uh, a lot, but I really didn't have a macroeconomic sense

JoAnn Holmes:

of the shift that was happening as the internet came online on a global basis.

JoAnn Holmes:

And now looking back 20 plus years into my career as an IP attorney, it's

JoAnn Holmes:

really apparent to me what's happening, um, with this shift to web three.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so what happened with web two is the enormity of value and wealth

JoAnn Holmes:

went to a very select few people.

JoAnn Holmes:

As a black woman,

JoAnn Holmes:

I would really love for communities of color and for women and for people in the

JoAnn Holmes:

developing world to have opportunities to gain more wealth from their contributions.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so what that looks like for me is, if someone is a talented artist and has

JoAnn Holmes:

access to the internet in the developing world, then they can go on a marketplace.

JoAnn Holmes:

They don't need to have access to Christy's or Soha be to be able to put

JoAnn Holmes:

their work online, open a digital wallet and be paid by those who value their work.

JoAnn Holmes:

Uh, I think that again, it's hard to imagine all of the possibilities, but

JoAnn Holmes:

frankly, one of the reasons I'm in this space is because I want people

JoAnn Holmes:

to see and hear someone who looks like me and like you and think, well, wow.

JoAnn Holmes:

If Joe is in this space, then maybe I have something to contribute too.

JoAnn Holmes:

I learned what I know and what we've spoken about today, certainly with the

JoAnn Holmes:

benefit of it all being intellectual property and me having been an

JoAnn Holmes:

IP attorney for a couple decades, but really I used free resources.

JoAnn Holmes:

I used YouTube, I used podcasts.

JoAnn Holmes:

I've used internet research.

JoAnn Holmes:

I used discord groups and Twitter and LinkedIn to learn from peer

JoAnn Holmes:

groups to check and double check the information I was getting.

JoAnn Holmes:

And that is not to say that there aren't risks associated

JoAnn Holmes:

with making any judgment calls.

JoAnn Holmes:

But I think that oftentimes, um, communities of color, marginalized

JoAnn Holmes:

communities have been left out of the wealth vehicles here in the United

JoAnn Holmes:

States and elsewhere in the world.

JoAnn Holmes:

And I think that representation matters.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so, knowing that there is a lot of fear, uncertainty and doubt, uh,

JoAnn Holmes:

it's referred to as FUD in the web three space, knowing that that exists,

JoAnn Holmes:

knowing that bad actors exist, having had heartbreaking conversations with

JoAnn Holmes:

people who have lost substantial amounts of money due to bad actors or

JoAnn Holmes:

good actors who made bad decisions.

JoAnn Holmes:

I'm really committed to sharing quality information so that people

JoAnn Holmes:

have a starting point and they can make informed decisions.

JoAnn Holmes:

People can walk away from this conversation and say, that's not for me.

JoAnn Holmes:

Thanks very much, Joe.

JoAnn Holmes:

I don't wanna participate.

JoAnn Holmes:

But I hope that what it will at least do is spark an interest so

JoAnn Holmes:

that people can be curious and think about where are the opportunities

JoAnn Holmes:

for me to participate and gain value

JoAnn Holmes:

from that participation?

JoAnn Holmes:

And it really, in so many ways, Erin just comes down to when I was a little

JoAnn Holmes:

girl, there were no lawyers in my family.

JoAnn Holmes:

I didn't know any lawyers, but I saw Claire Huxtable on TV.

JoAnn Holmes:

And I thought, well, at least that's an image that I could kind of try

JoAnn Holmes:

to grow up and be a lawyer like her.

JoAnn Holmes:

So I don't, I don't want to, uh, be Pollyannish, but I do want people

JoAnn Holmes:

to know that there are extraordinary opportunities in this space, no

JoAnn Holmes:

matter what you look like, no matter what background you come from.

JoAnn Holmes:

Um, and I'm really excited about the promise of breaking down some of

JoAnn Holmes:

the historical barriers for people to participate in gaining value.

Erin Austin:

Yeah.

Erin Austin:

Yeah.

Erin Austin:

I like, that's why I was so excited about having you on the show because too many

Erin Austin:

service, providers, aren't thinking.

Erin Austin:

Building assets.

Erin Austin:

They aren't thinking about ownership.

Erin Austin:

Like they know they own their expertise and yes, they get a good income

Erin Austin:

from it, but what are they building?

Erin Austin:

What are they owning?

Erin Austin:

And only way to build wealth is through ownership, whether

Erin Austin:

it's physical or digital asset.

Erin Austin:

And so that is, yeah, we're both thinking that same drum.

Erin Austin:

And I do think that, um, this has been tremendously helpful.

Erin Austin:

So.

Erin Austin:

What, where should someone start?

Erin Austin:

I mean, you mentioned some resources online.

Erin Austin:

If someone wanted to, um, say like, is this something that I may be able

Erin Austin:

to incorporate into my business?

Erin Austin:

Like, where should they start?

JoAnn Holmes:

I think a lot.

JoAnn Holmes:

Depends on what stage of business you are in what your goals are.

JoAnn Holmes:

Um, you know, we have seen over the past year to 18 months that companies like

JoAnn Holmes:

Tesla and MicroStrategy have started to put Bitcoin on their corporate treasuries.

JoAnn Holmes:

we have seen that Jamie diamond has spoken very poorly of the web

JoAnn Holmes:

three space historically, but now JP Morgan has a presence in the meta.

JoAnn Holmes:

So, uh, I think it's important to think about what your business

JoAnn Holmes:

objectives objectives are.

JoAnn Holmes:

Again, we have five different tent poles under the guise of web three.

JoAnn Holmes:

So for some business owners, they might say, I am willing to take 2%

JoAnn Holmes:

of my reserves in my business and buy some cryptocurrency and, you

JoAnn Holmes:

know, let it sit there for some time and see if it appreciates as I might

JoAnn Holmes:

instead buy a stock or buy, a piece of real estate or what have you.

JoAnn Holmes:

So for those who want to have a cryptocurrency in the space, your

JoAnn Holmes:

business might choose to take a component of your treasury and invest that way.

JoAnn Holmes:

For those who, for example, say, you know what?

JoAnn Holmes:

I'm a celebrity, I'm an influencer.

JoAnn Holmes:

I am someone who has already built an extraordinary community.

JoAnn Holmes:

Um, that believe in me, believe in what I'm building.

JoAnn Holmes:

Maybe you're an ESG focus.

JoAnn Holmes:

Organization, maybe you issue an NFT and maybe that's a way to get your community

JoAnn Holmes:

even more involved and you take the funds that are raised from that NFT.

JoAnn Holmes:

And then you allow the, uh, buyers of that NFT who maybe are members

JoAnn Holmes:

of your DAO to plant trees.

JoAnn Holmes:

In a local community, maybe an urban or underserved community.

JoAnn Holmes:

Maybe you go out and, you know, pay school, lunch fees at a school of

JoAnn Holmes:

kids in an underserved community.

JoAnn Holmes:

Um, a lot depends on what your business objectives are, what

JoAnn Holmes:

stage you are in business.

JoAnn Holmes:

What makes sense for the audience you're trying to communicate with?

JoAnn Holmes:

I think there are no magic bullets.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so, because certain projects, let's say for example, the board yacht club,

JoAnn Holmes:

um, it's been said over recent times that if you bought a board eight for two

JoAnn Holmes:

or $300 around April, may of 2021, with all of the different derivative works

JoAnn Holmes:

that have come out of that.

JoAnn Holmes:

You're now up over 400% percent, I think it

JoAnn Holmes:

is in, in your investment

JoAnn Holmes:

in that digital asset.

JoAnn Holmes:

But then there are NFT projects that come online all the time that have no community

JoAnn Holmes:

and that are not going to be purchased.

JoAnn Holmes:

And I think.

JoAnn Holmes:

There can be euphoria.

JoAnn Holmes:

And in the midst of euphoria, people can have some unrealistic expectations.

JoAnn Holmes:

When I work with my clients, one of the things that I do is help

JoAnn Holmes:

them roadmap and white paper, uh, their plan for their project.

JoAnn Holmes:

And we have very honest conversations so I can understand what their objectives

JoAnn Holmes:

are and I can give them visibility

JoAnn Holmes:

to the legal issues that impact what they're trying to build.

JoAnn Holmes:

I think it is no different than traditional business in the

JoAnn Holmes:

sense that you need to understand how you're providing value.

JoAnn Holmes:

Why are people going to invest in what you're offering in a web three space?

JoAnn Holmes:

And, you know, things change.

JoAnn Holmes:

You will need to pivot.

JoAnn Holmes:

We are again very early and there will be iterations of any offering of a

JoAnn Holmes:

product or service in this space, but starting from an understanding of.

JoAnn Holmes:

What resources do you have?

JoAnn Holmes:

Do I have community, do I have excess funds that I'm willing to, you know,

JoAnn Holmes:

tolerate some volatility through to see if it's an appreciating asset?

JoAnn Holmes:

Do I have the ability to do data analytics to understand which

JoAnn Holmes:

metaverse worlds are going to have cadence with which audiences?

JoAnn Holmes:

There are so many different ways that you can participate in this

JoAnn Holmes:

space, depending on what your time, your talents and your offerings are.

JoAnn Holmes:

So there's no one size fits all.

JoAnn Holmes:

I would encourage people again to either do your own research, or if you

JoAnn Holmes:

think you have something valuable to offer in the space, build community.

JoAnn Holmes:

Jump into a discord room.

JoAnn Holmes:

Um, get on Twitter, get on LinkedIn.

JoAnn Holmes:

There are very inviting communities where you can have conversations, and

JoAnn Holmes:

if you do need help around the legal issues, I would encourage you to speak

JoAnn Holmes:

to an attorney who spends their time, day in and day out in the web free space.

JoAnn Holmes:

Even with my long background in intellectual property,

JoAnn Holmes:

web three is different.

JoAnn Holmes:

It is constantly evolving.

JoAnn Holmes:

And if you want someone who can give you good guidance around the realities

JoAnn Holmes:

of this space at any given moment in time, it's one of those areas, not

JoAnn Holmes:

unlike IP, where I would never encourage speaking to an attorney who dabbles in

JoAnn Holmes:

this

Erin Austin:

I love that word dabbles always.

Erin Austin:

She's like don't, you know, like I don't dabble.

Erin Austin:

Don't do someone who dabbles it is.

Erin Austin:

It is danger.

Erin Austin:

Danger.

Erin Austin:

Yes.

Erin Austin:

Dabbling is danger.

Erin Austin:

Yes, absolutely.

Erin Austin:

So.

Erin Austin:

this podcast is actually fairly meta.

Erin Austin:

You know, it is about helping female founders of expertise based

Erin Austin:

businesses grow a business that they can hopefully sell someday.

Erin Austin:

And that is part of my mission with my business as well.

Erin Austin:

And so I like to ask my guest, do you have a plan to grow your business, to sell it?

JoAnn Holmes:

You know, I have been in business for myself for approaching

JoAnn Holmes:

six years now, six or seven years, I haven't done the math lately.

JoAnn Holmes:

And before that I had the good fortune of serving on management

JoAnn Holmes:

teams of international companies.

JoAnn Holmes:

Um, very different skill sets, being a so entrepreneur versus being, um,

JoAnn Holmes:

in the leadership of a global company.

JoAnn Holmes:

And.

JoAnn Holmes:

I have tried different things.

JoAnn Holmes:

You know, I think that your listeners will not be surprised that

JoAnn Holmes:

entrepreneurship is experimentation.

JoAnn Holmes:

It is trying different things.

JoAnn Holmes:

Seeing does this feel right?

JoAnn Holmes:

Does this feel like a good fit?

JoAnn Holmes:

Is this the highest and best use of my time and talents?

JoAnn Holmes:

I'm a person of faith, Erin.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so I pray my way through everything and figuring out, you know, is this what

JoAnn Holmes:

I should be doing in this space right now?

JoAnn Holmes:

And it's also very helpful on tough days where things aren't

JoAnn Holmes:

going the way I want them to go.

JoAnn Holmes:

But I say all of that to.

JoAnn Holmes:

it may be something that I do in the future, you know, for, uh, going back

JoAnn Holmes:

to Natalie Al, she always says it's hard to use your superpower on yourself.

JoAnn Holmes:

Um, I'm very grateful that people have been kind in their feedback

JoAnn Holmes:

for my knowledge in the web free space, but I honestly am.

JoAnn Holmes:

Still early enough that I don't really know what I should be offering

JoAnn Holmes:

in terms of an annuity, a residual product, , that would do what

JoAnn Holmes:

the, the businesses that are saleable would offer.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so I'm giving myself some space and grace to really listen

JoAnn Holmes:

to the community, listen to the projects that ask for my time and my

JoAnn Holmes:

feedback on what they're building.

JoAnn Holmes:

I will tell you that my consistent prayer is that my time and talents

JoAnn Holmes:

are used for the glory of God.

JoAnn Holmes:

And when I am talking to projects and thinking about how I can be helpful for

JoAnn Holmes:

them, I'm really trying to understand, am I the right person to serve them?

JoAnn Holmes:

Do I have the skillset, or can I grow into the skillset?

JoAnn Holmes:

That would be best to serve them.

JoAnn Holmes:

So still being only six months into offering web three legal

JoAnn Holmes:

services, which I have to remind myself sometimes I'm like, Okay.

JoAnn Holmes:

This whole industry is early, so it's okay that I'm still relatively early in it.

JoAnn Holmes:

But I'm not clear yet about the product market fit.

JoAnn Holmes:

And I had committed to myself that I would allow myself a

JoAnn Holmes:

little bit more than six months

JoAnn Holmes:

to figure out what that product market fit would be.

JoAnn Holmes:

But I have to tell you on a personal note, I am so very grateful to be at a stage

JoAnn Holmes:

in my career as an attorney where I'm just lit up, with excitement about how

JoAnn Holmes:

this space is moving and evolving and the opportunities that are arising from it.

JoAnn Holmes:

It's not again, I don't wanna be Pollyannish.

JoAnn Holmes:

It's not like I don't have, , you know, my questions about the space,

JoAnn Holmes:

like anyone else would, but I really see extraordinary opportunities.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so I think in due course, I'll have a better answer, but I'm, I'm too new

JoAnn Holmes:

with this career transition to really be able to answer you confidently.

JoAnn Holmes:

I hope that's okay.

Erin Austin:

is a great answer.

Erin Austin:

No, absolutely.

Erin Austin:

And you know, again, another intersection between what you and I do

Erin Austin:

is using our expertise, like not just to serve nonprofits, but you know,

Erin Austin:

any business can be mission driven.

Erin Austin:

If we are using a.

Erin Austin:

Our expertise to help build an economy that works for more of us.

Erin Austin:

And so that is part of the mission here, you know, specifically with

Erin Austin:

respect to female founders who, you know, I believe that wealth in the

Erin Austin:

hands of women can change the world.

Erin Austin:

Um, but also, um, other other communities and, uh, and so that we can feel it.

Erin Austin:

Actually helped free me as I was making a transition from more

Erin Austin:

traditional legal practice to one that was more focused on who I worked

Erin Austin:

with, trying to figure out like, how do I use my big company experience?

Erin Austin:

And, uh, and when I realized, well, you know, if I am, you know,

Erin Austin:

helping people magnify their impact, Then that magnifies my impact.

Erin Austin:

Right.

Erin Austin:

And it doesn't have to just be, you know, with nonprofits, like people think

Erin Austin:

you don't, it's not just the Patagonia of the world or the nonprofits of the

Erin Austin:

world, but we're all have the ability to do great things with our wealth.

Erin Austin:

So I love that.

Erin Austin:

We, we, we definitely are our in alignment on that.

Erin Austin:

So I know what I wanted to say as you were talking, which is, I have been thinking

Erin Austin:

about adding transcripts to website pages for my podcast and I haven't done it yet.

Erin Austin:

And this episode has accelerated my decision to absolutely do this.

Erin Austin:

There's been so much fantastic information in this.

Erin Austin:

I absolutely want people to listen to you because you you're enthusiasm and

Erin Austin:

love for this topic is so clear as you've been speaking, but then they're gonna

Erin Austin:

need to get the transcript and study it

Erin Austin:

because there's so much goodness in here.

Erin Austin:

Speaking of, you know, creating a society that is more equitable, we

Erin Austin:

love to let people give a shout out to organizations or people that they

Erin Austin:

know and love that are working to create a more equitable society.

Erin Austin:

Is there someone you'd like to share with us?

JoAnn Holmes:

There's an organization that I feel is so worthy of

JoAnn Holmes:

being identified and supported.

JoAnn Holmes:

I've mentioned in our conversation that I'm a mom.

JoAnn Holmes:

Um, probably more than a decade ago, I learned that girls particularly in

JoAnn Holmes:

the developing world are sold into sex trafficking and, or are married

JoAnn Holmes:

off to men much much their senior.

JoAnn Holmes:

And oftentimes this has happened because there's not a financial

JoAnn Holmes:

resource in the family to support all of the children, and girls' education

JoAnn Holmes:

is not prioritized relative to boys in much of the developing world.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so, uh, because I'm a lawyer.

JoAnn Holmes:

My immediate thought was, well, I need to participate in a solution to this.

JoAnn Holmes:

I can't unknow this information, especially as the mom of a girl.

JoAnn Holmes:

And especially as someone who was blessed to have parents and an extended family

JoAnn Holmes:

that always supported me academically and believed in my capability.

JoAnn Holmes:

And that carries me to this day.

JoAnn Holmes:

So here, based in Atlanta, where I am.

JoAnn Holmes:

Is an organization called care.

JoAnn Holmes:

People might have heard of care packages from decades ago, but for quite some

JoAnn Holmes:

time now care's focus has been on three tent poles for women and girls

JoAnn Holmes:

in the developing world, education, healthcare and financial resources.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so what we know from the research is that when a girl is educated, she

JoAnn Holmes:

is less likely to be sold into sex trafficking or forced into marriage.

JoAnn Holmes:

We know that when a woman has financial resources of her own and

JoAnn Holmes:

can contribute to her household.

JoAnn Holmes:

She is less likely to be beaten or treated poorly by her

JoAnn Holmes:

spouse or her extended family.

JoAnn Holmes:

And we know that, uh, there are very serious risks to maternal health

JoAnn Holmes:

and mortality, uh, for women who don't have access to the resources

JoAnn Holmes:

we have in the developed world.

JoAnn Holmes:

So.

JoAnn Holmes:

When a girl is educated, she grows up to become an educated mom.

JoAnn Holmes:

She is more likely to put a premium on education to her children that has ripple

JoAnn Holmes:

effects in her village, in her community and her city and her nation and our world.

JoAnn Holmes:

So the reason why I support care financially, uh, and I've actually

JoAnn Holmes:

been to Congress a couple of times to also support legislation that

JoAnn Holmes:

care has worked around is because

JoAnn Holmes:

I am a lawyer.

JoAnn Holmes:

I believe in results.

JoAnn Holmes:

I look at facts.

JoAnn Holmes:

I look at problems and I think about solutions.

JoAnn Holmes:

And care has been in all the places that many of us learn about when a

JoAnn Holmes:

crisis hits, but they've been there on a sustainable basis, focusing around

JoAnn Holmes:

education, healthcare, and financial resources for women and girls.

Erin Austin:

That is fantastic.

Erin Austin:

Thank you for sharing that.

Erin Austin:

And we will have that in the show notes as well.

Erin Austin:

We're gonna have like the ethics show notes at the end of this one.

Erin Austin:

And so finally, where can people find you?

JoAnn Holmes:

Thank you.

JoAnn Holmes:

It's just been so fun talking to you.

JoAnn Holmes:

Thank you for having me, Erin.

JoAnn Holmes:

I'm excited for your audience to hear this.

JoAnn Holmes:

I'm very active on LinkedIn.

JoAnn Holmes:

Uh, my name is Joanne Holmes, J O a N N H O L M E S.

JoAnn Holmes:

My website isHolmes@law.com.

JoAnn Holmes:

I am on Twitter, also with the handle homes at law, but I am

JoAnn Holmes:

again, most active on LinkedIn.

JoAnn Holmes:

And so.

JoAnn Holmes:

I would encourage people to reach out to me.

JoAnn Holmes:

Um, there, uh, I'd love to follow the projects and things

JoAnn Holmes:

that folks are interested in.

JoAnn Holmes:

And that tends to be the place where I let folks know what I'm doing or what I'm

JoAnn Holmes:

teaching, what I'm sharing, what I have to offer, with the web three community.

JoAnn Holmes:

And in terms of clients who I work with, they tend to be professionals

JoAnn Holmes:

who are establishing organizations moving out of web two into web three.

JoAnn Holmes:

So sometimes that's investors.

JoAnn Holmes:

Sometimes that's consultants who are helping bridge the gap between physical

JoAnn Holmes:

and digital assets or, people with computer or data analytics, backgrounds,

JoAnn Holmes:

innovators who are creating new opportunities in the web three space.

JoAnn Holmes:

Um, and who have had most likely success in their professional

JoAnn Holmes:

life, in the web two space and seeing where the opportunities are.

JoAnn Holmes:

So again, I love seeing new projects.

JoAnn Holmes:

Give me some grace.

JoAnn Holmes:

If I don't get back to immediately, my calendar is a little crazy,

Erin Austin:

I bet

JoAnn Holmes:

but it's really fun to connect.

Erin Austin:

That is wonderful.

Erin Austin:

Thank you so much, Jo, for being so generous with your time and your wisdom.

Erin Austin:

This has been an amazing conversation, and I imagine you will receive a

Erin Austin:

number of questions and follow ups.

Erin Austin:

So I look forward to the next time.

Erin Austin:

Thank you again.

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Hourly to Exit

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Erin Austin

Meet Erin Austin, a Harvard Law alum with over 25 years of copyright and contracts experience. As the go-to advisor for professionals with corporate clients, Erin empowers entrepreneurs to be their own advocates, standing out for her commitment to transforming expertise into empires through the creation, protection and leveraging of intellectual property assets. Explore her blend of legal expertise and entrepreneurial insight on ThinkBeyondIP.com and the "Hourly to Exit" podcast. Off the clock, you'll find Erin in the great outdoors or connecting with business coaches to elevate 6-figure consultants into 7-figure powerhouses.